Categorizing release angle ranges

[disc-golf-neil]

I don't see the point in doing this unless you are settled on your form. Even then I'm not sure how useful this is throwing into a net rather than focusing on your target/apex in real world conditions with wind and obstacles. I'd spend more time working on the lines/destination rather than the release numbers.

If you are already going to be throwing into a net to work on form and test out other things why not also learn your speeds and angles more accurately simultaneously? You don't have to take extra time really to pick the target speed and angles and look at those values if you are already looking at another value like nose angle or something.

Plus many things should be compared at similar speeds anyways. E.g., does a grip change increase spin? Should hold speed constant and possibly angles as much as possible for that comparison.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I don't think anyone is criticizing you man. People are just not really thinking the same way and stating why.

I'm not sure what you expect here honestly. Why do you need people to agree with your categories? They will exist purely for your own personal thought process about how to throw discs consistently.

It's all good and I say do what is fun. Tech disc is cool but a whole lot of people got good at angle control before it existed so this is certainly not some objectively superior method to defend either.

And even if you go this route, if you do it early in your form work it really might not even help in the longer run.

I hope it works for ya though!

"Overthinking"
"Not practical"

If that's not criticism then what is it? But I don't mind it, it's what forces you to hone your ideas and explanations but some criticisms are more fruitful than others.

 

[RowingBoats]

"Overthinking"
"Not practical"

If that's not criticism then what is it? But I don't mind it, it's what forces you to hone your ideas and explanations but some criticisms are more fruitful than others.

Fair enough.

I will say that going from 300' of power to around 450' now has dramatically changed the way I conceive of hitting lines.

Thousands of throws in this pursuit earlier on would not have benefited me in the way you describe as the goal. I think this is what some people are also trying to say here.

If you are happy with your form and think it is consistent enough to go down this path, I can see that being worth some off season time. If you still have significant distance gain goals, I think you are much better off usinng footage and the tech disc with other goals in mind for now. That's all

I know this thread wasn't really intended to discuss the merits of your idea, but I still don't know what more you need from other people in the context of your initial question. You will have to decide what kind of game plan you do best with and tailor your angles to your bag and strategy. No one else can really help you there.

Some people like to use similar swings and get different lines by using wildly different discs. Some people like me enjoy making fewer discs do way different things.

I know you kind of belittle the concept of "throw a little harder" and "a little less angle" and feel like assigning numbers to that will help but I disagree with that. You will be doing the same thing when you attempt to merge the raw numbers with actual real disc flights. If you throw a line short because you deliberately threw it 55mph, thinking about throwing 5mph more is the same thing as a little harder for most of us. I have different backswings and coil feelings to control a lot of my distance, I learned how far certain swings go for me by throwing a lot discs in a field. I can use a few swings with different class discs to have some pretty dang granular control. I have absolutely no idea what mph they go and it wouldn't change my method if I did.

 

[RowingBoats]

If you are already going to be throwing into a net to work on form and test out other things why not also learn your speeds and angles more accurately simultaneously?

I guess it seemed like you are emphasizing this endeavor.

If this is all just something you will be peeking at as you go, I really don't understand having to categorize groupings of hyzer degrees.

Just…have an angle goal in mind and a get consistent at hitting it by using tech disc feedback.

The skill itself is all that matters. Unless you are planning on some monumentally robotic gameplan where you bust out a rangefinder, wind reading weather station, do some trigonometry on the trees at different ranges, and compute a swing.

That isn't how I play lol.

 

[sidewinder22]

If you are already going to be throwing into a net to work on form and test out other things why not also learn your speeds and angles more accurately simultaneously? You don't have to take extra time really to pick the target speed and angles and look at those values if you are already looking at another value like nose angle or something.

Plus many things should be compared at similar speeds anyways. E.g., does a grip change increase spin? Should hold speed constant and possibly angles as much as possible for that comparison.

I have no issue with playing around with mechanics to find variables in speed and nose angle. Wing angle is the easiest thing to figure out how to adjust IMO.

My biggest question is how practical working all these specific wing angles would be? Most pros use "stock shot" release angle and speed that they rely on as much as possible. Changing their discs, rather than mechanics to match that stock shot to match the intended distance and line as much as possible.

"I fear not the man that has practiced 10,000 different kicks, but the man that has practiced one kick 10,000 times." - Bruce Lee

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I have no issue with playing around with mechanics to find variables in speed and nose angle. Wing angle is the easiest thing to figure out how to adjust IMO.

My biggest question is how practical working all these specific wing angles would be? Most pros use "stock shot" release angle and speed that they rely on as much as possible. Changing their discs, rather than mechanics to match that stock shot to match the intended distance and line as much as possible.

"I fear not the man that has practiced 10,000 different kicks, but the man that has practiced one kick 10,000 times." - Bruce Lee

And how many "stock hyzer angles" would you guess is normal among elite pros? That was part of the question in the first post, it was me saying I'm not sure how many there should be if categorizing hyzer angles and how granular it should be.

And what would you guess the margin of error would be for each stock hyzer? 10 degrees? I don't know

But also you could lose a disc and now your stock hyzer flip angle doesn't produce the usual result with your next closest disc or the replacement disc, what then? You have to make a minor adjustment that is in between two of your stock hyzer angles, or move up a stock hyzer angle and pair it with a more understable disc and hope those match up well.

 

[sidewinder22]

Like I said adjusting wing angle is the easy part. Most pros have backups ready or close enough to not be affected much.

One issue with the tech disc is that your disc selection is limited with your testing. Another is that the weight distribution is different than a normal disc, so you are not really throwing the same moment of inertia.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I guess it seemed like you are emphasizing this endeavor.

If this is all just something you will be peeking at as you go, I really don't understand having to categorize groupings of hyzer degrees.

Just…have an angle goal in mind and a get consistent at hitting it by using tech disc feedback.

The skill itself is all that matters. Unless you are planning on some monumentally robotic gameplan where you bust out a rangefinder, wind reading weather station, do some trigonometry on the trees at different ranges, and compute a swing.

That isn't how I play lol.

Because I want to be able to look at the throw history and see how much closer to the goals I am getting over time and see where things go off the rails, like maybe I start getting pretty accurate with release angles at a certain MPH range but then at a higher MPH range I start becoming less accurate or at different launch angles, so I can then try to make some corrections in that area when I'm looking for the next thing to work on.

I don't want to just say "I'm trying to throw medium speed and medium hyzer" because that is meaningless without defining how much "medium" is, I can't check if I accomplished that goal and look at a history to see my improvement towards that goal.

Here's an example of what it would look like, these were test throws into a net where I couldn't throw high. I don't have a strong intuition though about how granularly to segment my goal-oriented tags, 5 MPH increments? 10 degree hyzer increments? Are those too wide or too narrow? I was hoping someone might have some info that could help me decide.

 

[ru4por]

Because I want to be able to look at the throw history and see how much closer to the goals I am getting over time and see where things go off the rails, like maybe I start getting pretty accurate with release angles at a certain MPH range but then at a higher MPH range I start becoming less accurate or at different launch angles, so I can then try to make some corrections in that area when I'm looking for the next thing to work on.

I don't want to just say "I'm trying to throw medium speed and medium hyzer" because that is meaningless without defining how much "medium" is, I can't check if I accomplished that goal and look at a history to see my improvement towards that goal.

Here's an example of what it would look like, these were test throws into a net where I couldn't throw high. I don't have a strong intuition though about how granularly to segment my goal-oriented tags, 5 MPH increments? 10 degree hyzer increments? Are those too wide or too narrow? I was hoping someone might have some info that could help me decide.

View attachment 331206

 

[sidewinder22]

When you ask 3 of the best throwers in the world to throw flat, they are throwing 20 degree hyzer. Their anhyzer is closer to flat release with a leftward trajectory. Stock hyzer is about 45 degrees with a rightward trajectory.

 

[Sheep]

Why say this without any useful details?

Because I don't have the details to give you, but a piece of the puzzle is definitly missing.

Sounds like a lot of potential for the old "paralysis by analysis" to me.

Agreed.

Yeah I thought about that but I actually do a flat launch angle with like 40 deg hyzer sometimes to get through a curve then penetrate flat, with that much hyzer on a pretty flippy disc with power it takes a while to fully flip up so you can get that curve first.

The part that is missing from this particular idea is that not all discs flip or turn over the same.
Do you understand rotational speed to control flip over as well?
How about if the disc is designed to flip early or late?

Also, the more you practice analyzing the greater your capacity for it is.

Data is data, performance is performance. With the data in my head, I "could" be top 5 disc golfer.
I don't have the practice, time, effort and ability to achieve that.

Thus, "paralysis by analysis."
It's not that data is bad, data is good. But you can only think on stuff so much before you're putting to many irons in the fire and it becomes impractical.
So, while getting the data is good, you need a path of taking this data into real world reality. And if your data points are to wide, its not possible to practice enough to bring it to fruition.

Overall, I think this is a way over complicated approach. Seeing if you can consistently hit an angle is all good but just leave it at that imo! Why define so many categories?

But to somewhat answer your question I think you cut off viable angles way too early. I have holes where I throw a straight up rainbow shot lol. But I don't think of that shot as an 85 degree hyzer 52.4 mph throw. I pretty much literally just think about throwing a rainbow shape.

One of the best tips ever on video was given by McBeth. Plan your apex. I throw big spike hyzers planning my apex and usually throwing a -3 or -4 turn disc. Using the data on turnovers and other weird stuff, its .. neat, but its over complicated, because it just doesn't always work like that.
OMG, like that would turn over into a roller! No. You learn to control and spin the disc to get it to do it. It's far more fun that way also. Just cause its flippy doesn't mean its gonna flip depending on how you throw and how much spin. there are just to many variables to take into account when planning, that it has to be a feel thing, not a data thing.

I think if you were to try and use this data in any way, it would be just to keep a log track of your bog standard shots. Flat, slight hyzer, hyzer. Record.
Go back to working on form. Record again.
Looking at it from a report of practice high speed and low speed changes in your spin rate.
Then get the tech disc out and see if you can actually control it.
Again, using the tech disc as a record performance tool only. It's when you start to use it as the tool to train with vs check your work I think is where the biggest issue comes to.

I think a lot of advanced players already do this in some form.

The better you get the more granular you are able to control your power and angles and people typically think about it in some relative terms and associated with feelings. For example a less advanced player maybe thinks about throwing soft, medium, or hard only. Whereas an advanced player has added additional granular levels and maybe uses percentages of their max power as a reference point and similarly has more granular reference points for angles.

While this is true. its a feel thing. You get this feel for the discs through constant practice and repetition.

The hardest things for newer to advanced players to do are hit release angles, and control the nose and spin of the disc.

You can be taught to control the spin and nose angle. But you have to practice learning to control your angles. And while the tech disc will tell you those things, you have to put in reps to learn it, the tech disc isn't going to help you if you're using it for every throw and looking at the data.
All your going to do is muck your form up.

I don't think anyone is criticizing you man. People are just not really thinking the same way and stating why.

I'm not sure what you expect here honestly. Why do you need people to agree with your categories? They will exist purely for your own personal thought process about how to throw discs consistently.

It's all good and I say do what is fun. Tech disc is cool but a whole lot of people got good at angle control before it existed so this is certainly not some objectively superior method to defend either.

I'd say that some of it was not understanding the overall concept and purpose. And another part of the post was looking for affirmation on the process and thoughts involved. But instead we are providing counter points to think about in the process and it's not being received very well.
And its normal to have this emotional response. We all have it. We wanna defend our idea's. And while none of us are saying its a bad idea. Were also pointing out more practical things involved with it.

If you are already going to be throwing into a net to work on form and test out other things why not also learn your speeds and angles more accurately simultaneously?

Because you need to choose one or the other. If you're chasing data, you're gonna muck up your form.

"Overthinking"
"Not practical"

If that's not criticism then what is it? But I don't mind it, it's what forces you to hone your ideas and explanations but some criticisms are more fruitful than others.

Were trying to provide constructive feedback.

Fair enough.

I will say that going from 300' of power to around 450' now has dramatically changed the way I conceive of hitting lines.

Thousands of throws in this pursuit earlier on would not have benefited me in the way you describe as the goal. I think this is what some people are also trying to say here.

If you are happy with your form and think it is consistent enough to go down this path, I can see that being worth some off season time. If you still have significant distance gain goals, I think you are much better off usinng footage and the tech disc with other goals in mind for now. That's all

I know this thread wasn't really intended to discuss the merits of your idea, but I still don't know what more you need from other people in the context of your initial question. You will have to decide what kind of game plan you do best with and tailor your angles to your bag and strategy. No one else can really help you there.

Some people like to use similar swings and get different lines by using wildly different discs. Some people like me enjoy making fewer discs do way different things.

I know you kind of belittle the concept of "throw a little harder" and "a little less angle" and feel like assigning numbers to that will help but I disagree with that. You will be doing the same thing when you attempt to merge the raw numbers with actual real disc flights. If you throw a line short because you deliberately threw it 55mph, thinking about throwing 5mph more is the same thing as a little harder for most of us. I have different backswings and coil feelings to control a lot of my distance, I learned how far certain swings go for me by throwing a lot discs in a field. I can use a few swings with different class discs to have some pretty dang granular control. I have absolutely no idea what mph they go and it wouldn't change my method if I did.

Home Run hit right there.

That isn't how I play lol.

Just as long as you always play with yourself.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

The part that is missing from this particular idea is that not all discs flip or turn over the same.

Does anyone believe that? I thought it goes without saying.

Were trying to provide constructive feedback.

I didn't say it wasn't constructive, just that some are more useful than others. Often, an alternative way to say constructive feedback is "constructive criticism" so either way, there is criticism. I was just debating the claim that no one was criticizing. I expect constructive criticism, that's part the point of the forum and forces you to develop a stronger idea or abandon ones that are too flawed.

 

[Sheep]

I didn't say it wasn't constructive, just that some are more useful than others. Often, an alternative way to say constructive feedback is "constructive criticism" so either way, there is criticism. I was just debating the claim that no one was criticizing. I expect constructive criticism, that's part the point of the forum and forces you to develop a stronger idea or abandon ones that are too flawed.

Something that is long lost here in the last 10-20 years is peoples ability to accept criticisms as not a direct attack on their character.
And nobody has said anything negative or just downputting towards what you're attempting to do, but were in a land of words and text, not a land of facial expressions and body language as well.

So, don't take any of it personally, people providing their thoughts to what your doing.

You can either take them personally, or try and add them all up together and put together a better plan for what your doing.

Your choice. =)

 

[RowingBoats]

Does anyone believe that? I thought it goes without saying.

Almost everyone else in this thread is emphasizing real disc flight for a reason

This is such a weird sport because of the sheer number of variables at play. Maybe, MAYBE if you get close to perfect mph and wing angle control based on techdisc output, you will speed up learning your actual bag intimately by a bit. But all of the actual skills can be learned simultaneously by throwing real discs in the real world. Thousands of tech disc reps seems like it will have little benefit to me on top of serious injury potential.

And even that bit of sped up practical learning will be destroyed if you do make actual form gains that dramatically alter power afterwards. For me, powering down has always been one of the harder things to do while maintaining kinetic chain integrity.

I think Sheep said something similar above but you have the opposite take on what tech disc offers that I have. I believe the ideal use of that thing is to pinpoint issues identified in the flight of real discs and film of your form and use it to manipulate tiny aspects of the swing to correct those issues. In other words use it to see what you are doing wrong when you hit a brick wall that you can't figure out organically.

I also do really understand that these two concepts aren't it entirely mutually exclusive. The hyper categorization of this one small aspect of the swing just makes me think you are too far on the other side imo. You also said you will be doing thousands of reps. I guarantee you will at LEAST have to double the reps with real discs to merge any potential benefit into practical skill. Is it worth it? I guess thats up to you!

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Almost everyone else in this thread is emphasizing real disc flight for a reason

This is such a weird sport because of the sheer number of variables at play. Maybe, MAYBE if you get close to perfect mph and wing angle control based on techdisc output, you will speed up learning your actual bag intimately by a bit. But all of the actual skills can be learned simultaneously by throwing real discs in the real world. Thousands of tech disc reps seems like it will have little benefit to me on top of serious injury potential.

And even that bit of sped up practical learning will be destroyed if you do make actual form gains that dramatically alter power afterwards. For me, powering down has always been one of the harder things to do while maintaining kinetic chain integrity.

I think Sheep said something similar above but you have the opposite take on what tech disc offers that I have. I believe the ideal use of that thing is to pinpoint issues identified in the flight of real discs and film of your form and use it to manipulate tiny aspects of the swing to correct those issues. In other words use it to see what you are doing wrong when you hit a brick wall that you can't figure out organically.

I also do really understand that these two concepts aren't it entirely mutually exclusive. The hyper categorization of this one small aspect of the swing just makes me think you are too far on the other side imo. You also said you will be doing thousands of reps. I guarantee you will at LEAST have to double the reps with real discs to merge any potential benefit into practical skill. Is it worth it? I guess thats up to you!

When I accidentally turn over one of my real discs in a situation where there isn't much wind and is mostly flat ground, I'm imagining I could be able to feel more confidently the cause in real-time if I know what many speed and angle increments feel like due to being deeply ingrained from a positive feedback loop (by seeing the stats). As it stands now, sometimes I'm not sure if it was because I accidentally threw a bit harder, or I was releasing less hyzer than I planned, or if the disc is becoming more flippy, etc. In many situations they've already flipped, to some degree, by the time you look up and see the flight so you need footage to see, but if you weren't filming all you have are your feelings which can be honed to be more accurate in various ways.

 

[RowingBoats]

When I accidentally turn over one of my real discs in a situation where there isn't much wind and is mostly flat ground, I'm imagining I could be able to feel more confidently the cause in real-time if I know what many speed and angle increments feel like due to being deeply ingrained from a positive feedback loop (by seeing the stats). As it stands now, sometimes I'm not sure if it was because I accidentally threw a bit harder, or I was releasing less hyzer than I planned, or if the disc is becoming more flippy, etc. In many situations they've already flipped, to some degree, by the time you look up and see the flight so you need footage to see, but if you weren't filming all you have are your feelings which can be honed to be more accurate in various ways.

I get what you are saying man. This doesn't seem like a path that just objectively can't get you to your goals, it just seems like an inefficient and far less fun way to think about the game to me personally. Plus, it seems like you are wanting to do what I would consider far too many reps into a net as a substitute for field work and playing rounds.

I will tell you that for sure, your form is going to radically change if you have lofty distance goals. I will wager that you are still new enough that your entire conception of the swing might undergo a complete change or two. I highly recommend grinding out form until you are somewhere close to your overall distance goals before you start trying to perfect anything at all. Building real, clean power alters so, so much about how you think about throwing discs. If you try to get into the weeds before you are comfortable with your swing, I just feel like it is going to tempt you into some nonsense.

But, maybe that isn't your plan at all and you just want to use this data as a secondary source of information. If this is the case, I just don't understand why you need other people to validate your personal categories Do your thing, apply it to your bag, and see which angles are the most useful for the lines you want to throw and get consistent at them.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I get what you are saying man. This doesn't seem like a path that just objectively can't get you to your goals, it just seems like an inefficient and far less fun way to think about the game to me personally. Plus, it seems like you are wanting to do what I would consider far too many reps into a net as a substitute for field work and playing rounds.

I will tell you that for sure, your form is going to radically change if you have lofty distance goals. I will wager that you are still new enough that your entire conception of the swing might undergo a complete change or two. I highly recommend grinding out form until you are somewhere close to your overall distance goals before you start trying to perfect anything at all. Building real, clean power alters so, so much about how you think about throwing discs. If you try to get into the weeds before you are comfortable with your swing, I just feel like it is going to tempt you into some nonsense.

But, maybe that isn't your plan at all and you just want to use this data as a secondary source of information. If this is the case, I just don't understand why you need other people to validate your personal categories Do your thing, apply it to your bag, and see which angles are the most useful for the lines you want to throw and get consistent at them.

I promise I'm not going to play fewer rounds or skip field work to throw into a net, playing and watching the disc fly is too fun, lol. It's extra because it's so convenient so it's easy to get reps in, so over the months it will add up to thousands of throws, and not all will be max power.

I doubt my form is going to drastically change even though I've been playing for 4.5 months because I skipped the initial phase of letting whatever natural bad form you start with to set in since I watched form videos on day 1, so I was already heading in the right direction from the start. I've gotten plenty of good form advice here but the drastic suggestions have dried up and it's mostly optimizing things it seems. If find out about anything drastic, I'll start working on it immediately.

 

[GripEnemy]

 

[disc-golf-neil]

When you ask 3 of the best throwers in the world to throw flat, they are throwing 20 degree hyzer. Their anhyzer is closer to flat release with a leftward trajectory. Stock hyzer is about 45 degrees with a rightward trajectory.

View attachment 331209

Great pic. What is the pink dot marking?

I'm still wondering how many different hyzer angles a top pro chooses between when throwing different hyzer shots say throughout a tournament. That would be really interesting to find out. I've heard some pros talk about hyzer flip vs flip to late tern being choosing a slightly more understable disc for the late turn, but that's assuming similarly powered throws it seems so I'm sure they also might throw their usual hyzer flip to flat sometimes but at more power when they need to throw further and have it to turn more after flipping.

 

[mostlynorwegian]

Nothing will truly beat going out and just learning to throw your discs by developing the memory through repetition. It will enable you to create a wide range of additional sensibilities which make disc and/or shot selection a lot easier. Being data driven may get you enough knowledge to get down the driveway and off the property, but, it will never prepare you for any actual experience where decisions matter, and good ones yield results. You are just going to have to fail a few hundred times to learn which is which.