Categorizing release angle ranges

[RowingBoats]

I promise I'm not going to play fewer rounds or skip field work to throw into a net, playing and watching the disc fly is too fun, lol. It's extra because it's so convenient so it's easy to get reps in, so over the months it will add up to thousands of throws, and not all will be max power.

I doubt my form is going to drastically change even though I've been playing for 4.5 months because I skipped the initial phase of letting whatever natural bad form you start with to set in since I watched form videos on day 1, so I was already heading in the right direction from the start. I've gotten plenty of good form advice here but the drastic suggestions have dried up and it's mostly optimizing things it seems. If find out about anything drastic, I'll start working on it immediately.

Cool beans If you are happy with your form and want to grind it out from there, that's all that matters I suppose.

As far as how many hyzer angles you need to practice, I maintain that no one can tell you that and am still confused why you would want them to anyways. That is part of why people haven't engaged with your question in the way you are seeming to want. If you are seriously asking it, you are asking the wrong question at the wrong time. Determining how many angles pros throw does not determine how many angles YOU need to throw. And pros also wildly vary in their gameplans. There is no objective answer to this question.

There have been tons of subjective answers though, so hopefully you got what you were after here.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Nothing will truly beat going out and just learning to throw your discs by developing the memory through repetition. It will enable you to create a wide range of additional sensibilities which make disc and/or shot selection a lot easier. Being data driven may get you enough knowledge to get down the driveway and off the property, but, it will never prepare you for any actual experience where decisions matter, and good ones yield results. You are just going to have to fail a few hundred times to learn which is which.

This is all stuff I do after or before already playing and doing the normal work. This isn't replacing anything, it is additional fine tuning.

 

[sidewinder22]

Great pic. What is the pink dot marking?

I'm still wondering how many different hyzer angles a top pro chooses between when throwing different hyzer shots say throughout a tournament. That would be really interesting to find out. I've heard some pros talk about hyzer flip vs flip to late tern being choosing a slightly more understable disc for the late turn, but that's assuming similarly powered throws it seems so I'm sure they also might throw their usual hyzer flip to flat sometimes but at more power when they need to throw further and have it to turn more after flipping.

Magenta (pink) is the approx Center of Mass/Gravity.

I still don't understand why you need a number of different hyzer angles. All you basically need to do is adjust your balance/posture(CoM/CoG) to the intended wing angle or swing plane like doing an Olympic Hammer Throw. You don't need to practice different arm angles relative to the body.

 

[Sheep]

When I accidentally turn over one of my real discs in a situation where there isn't much wind and is mostly flat ground,

I get this one a lot, especially from Sub year players.
"I'm to powerful, I turn discs over."
Bit of sarcasm here on this, take it lightly.

I get guys telling me they turn over firebirds, or some other wacky stuff, or how their -1/2 disc is an instant roller all the time.

It's all form related. They are either just yeeting discs with absolutely no control, or they throw force annies on everything and think its a turn over.

I doubt my form is going to drastically change even though I've been playing for 4.5 months because I skipped the initial phase of letting whatever natural bad form you start with to set in since I watched form videos on day 1, so I was already heading in the right direction from the start. I've gotten plenty of good form advice here but the drastic suggestions have dried up and it's mostly optimizing things it seems.

Lets take a quick moment to analyze one really basic thing about your form already.

The yellow line is where your body is aiming.
The red line is where you threw to.

All these angles don't mean diddly until you can get that disc out on target line, cause you're over rotating really bad.

A quick run through looks like you're squishing the bug trying to fast rotate your hips, so your hips and shoulders are getting ahead of your arm, then your arm lags.

And. That explains why SW22 posted "dont hug yourself" =)

 

[RowingBoats]

I get this one a lot, especially from Sub year players.
"I'm to powerful, I turn discs over."
Bit of sarcasm here on this, take it lightly.

I get guys telling me they turn over firebirds, or some other wacky stuff, or how their -1/2 disc is an instant roller all the time.

It's all form related. They are either just yeeting discs with absolutely no control, or they throw force annies on everything and think its a turn over.




Lets take a quick moment to analyze one really basic thing about your form already.

The yellow line is where your body is aiming.
The red line is where you threw to.

All these angles don't mean diddly until you can get that disc out on target line, cause you're over rotating really bad.

A quick run through looks like you're squishing the bug trying to fast rotate your hips, so your hips and shoulders are getting ahead of your arm, then your arm lags.

And. That explains why SW22 posted "dont hug yourself" =)

Lol I get the desire to help but I think if he wants to post his form video to demonstrate that he doesn't need to work on it much, this just isn't the thread.

I don't disagree with you but also don't think this is the place. Maybe he will post more in his form request thread down the road.

Not sure there is much more to say about the nuances of hyzer angle categories here myself.

 

[Sheep]

Lol I get the desire to help but I think if he wants to post his form video to demonstrate that he doesn't need to work on it much, this just isn't the thread.

I don't disagree with you but also don't think this is the place. Maybe he will post more in his form request thread down the road.

Not sure there is much more to say about the nuances of hyzer angle categories here myself.

Why you gotta kick the mic around after I drop it off the soap box? =)

 

[mostlynorwegian]

This is all stuff I do after or before already playing and doing the normal work. This isn't replacing anything, it is additional fine tuning.

Sure. It will give you interesting details. I just don't think you need those kind of details for developing your game yet. Can you predict where a disc will land. ?

When I accidentally turn over one of my real discs in a situation where there isn't much wind and is mostly flat ground, I'm imagining I could be able to feel more confidently the cause in real-time if I know what many speed and angle increments feel like due to being deeply ingrained from a positive feedback loop (by seeing the stats). As it stands now, sometimes I'm not sure if it was because I accidentally threw a bit harder, or I was releasing less hyzer than I planned, or if the disc is becoming more flippy, etc. In many situations they've already flipped, to some degree, by the time you look up and see the flight so you need footage to see, but if you weren't filming all you have are your feelings which can be honed to be more accurate in various ways.

you're just going to have to develop the thing called intuition about that disc that turns over. At 4 mos. You have, and are proudly showing off all the confidence that is required to make a LOT of mistakes. Which is great. Now, make those mistakes with a point that you want to learn from them. Sure, you can blame the disc. But, as you develop. You will come to realize. The disc only has one job, and you threw it like crap. Here's where I get to say the oft repeated phrase. Let the disc do the work.
So, this thread is just a lot of people pointing out the knowledge you are seeking is what will come intuitively by failing a lot. And it will basically come down to two things. The angle of your plant foot, and where your shoulders were directed. We can talk about pop up, and also rounding and all that other stuff as well. You'll run over those bumps in the road in time, and maybe try and data your way through these. But, honestly. if you aren't pointing things in the right direction. They won't get there anyways.

 

[timothy42b]

Magenta (pink) is the approx Center of Mass/Gravity.

I still don't understand why you need a number of different hyzer angles. All you basically need to do is adjust your balance/posture(CoM/CoG) to the intended wing angle or swing plane like doing an Olympic Hammer Throw. You don't need to practice different arm angles relative to the body.

View attachment 331233

Not disagreeing just thinking out loud.
Older throwers might lack mobility. They have trouble bending their knees or leaning the torso. (I watched senior citizens getting a group tennis lesson. "Bend your knees." "I am." Knees stay straight and head tilts forward.)

If so they probably are going to have an upright posture and a mostly vertical axis of rotation. Of course lacking mobility they aren't going to throw super far anyway, but maybe they can still throw the different release angles by manipulating arm or wrist angles.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

I get this one a lot, especially from Sub year players.
"I'm to powerful, I turn discs over."
Bit of sarcasm here on this, take it lightly.

I get guys telling me they turn over firebirds, or some other wacky stuff, or how their -1/2 disc is an instant roller all the time.

It's all form related. They are either just yeeting discs with absolutely no control, or they throw force annies on everything and think its a turn over.




Lets take a quick moment to analyze one really basic thing about your form already.

The yellow line is where your body is aiming.
The red line is where you threw to.

All these angles don't mean diddly until you can get that disc out on target line, cause you're over rotating really bad.

A quick run through looks like you're squishing the bug trying to fast rotate your hips, so your hips and shoulders are getting ahead of your arm, then your arm lags.

And. That explains why SW22 posted "dont hug yourself" =)

Thanks for the form analysis, yeah when I try to push max distance like there it's easy to over-rotate, definitely need to work on that at higher power, but at my more comfortable power, like 320-350 feet I'm pretty decent at hitting gaps and targeting landing zones. I play mostly tightly wooded courses with lots of long holes so it's very obvious when you missed the line. That playlist has a few wooded hole throws in it.

I know decently about the mistake between thinking a disc is turning over too much vs it being you messing up the release angle (not enough hyzer). There was a period I was accidentally losing my hyzer body lean by standing up straight during the power pocket. But now, I can throw that really flippy disc I referenced (Innova IT) at max power without it turning and burning by putting a lot of hyzer on it, it will get a decent bit of turn but come back. I've also had some friend's ask me to throw some of their discs that were turning and burning on them and was able to throw it at power without that happening.

And now I've discovered more uses for that IT disc after learning to throw high power but with lot's of hyzer and at a low launch angle, so it feels like my normal hyzer flip but with extra body lean for more hyzer. So if I add a few more hyzer angles, I might be able to open more opportunities similarly.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Magenta (pink) is the approx Center of Mass/Gravity.

I still don't understand why you need a number of different hyzer angles. All you basically need to do is adjust your balance/posture(CoM/CoG) to the intended wing angle or swing plane like doing an Olympic Hammer Throw. You don't need to practice different arm angles relative to the body.

View attachment 331233

Yeah that's part of the question. Another way to formulate it is how many different hyzer body angles would Simon likely use in a tournament, or more broadly, how many are typically demanded at the pro level?

1. Small forward lean = small hyzer = some acceptable range of hyzer angles if executed correctly
2. Medium forward lean = medium hyzer = some range of hyzer angles
3. Large forward lean...

3 sounds like a small amount that would be manageable by pros, so maybe it's more.

Of course one player's "small" body lean is not the same amount as another player's and other differences in form can affect it. Player A's "small" hyzer might be ~10 degrees while player B's "small" hyzer might be ~20 degrees, when the degree data is available, it cuts through more ambiguity.

Another player preference variation would be like, Jakub Semerád, who says his strategy is to try to throw flat and change discs mostly, but I'm sure sometimes for sharper lines he has to deviate from this and choose between more body angles.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Lol I get the desire to help but I think if he wants to post his form video to demonstrate that he doesn't need to work on it much, this just isn't the thread.

I just don't want people to reply as if I'm a some player who is rounding extremely and throwing huge swooping nose up air bounces into the trees instead of discussing this topic at a level beyond that. Anytime I post my form, I hope someone will find something major I need to fix so I can fix it ASAP, but lately in dedicated form review threads, I've been receiving advice that, when I work on, I experience it as a form tweak and not a 'drastic' change akin to an overhaul.

 

[Sheep]

I just don't want people to reply as if I'm a some player who is rounding extremely and throwing huge swooping nose up air bounces into the trees instead of discussing this topic at a level beyond that. Anytime I post my form, I hope someone will find something major I need to fix so I can fix it ASAP, but lately in dedicated form review threads, I've been receiving advice that, when I work on, I experience it as a form tweak and not a 'drastic' change akin to an overhaul.

I'ma just roll this in right here, and it's not a dis.

I've been playing for 4.5 months

I'll give you 5 months. And honestly, your form isn't atrocious for 5 months.

But between a few of us in here were pushing 40+ years of experience were dropping on you. 2 of us actively coach players, SW and I. And SW has been doing it for a long while.

It's more of us telling you in more simple terms, You're putting the cart before the horse.

We don't "hate" your idea. but it's not as practical as you might think, because throwing hyzers is a huge feel thing, not a mechanical math thing.



Boats,
you stay away from my effing microphone.
i'ma slap you with it like silent jay.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

because throwing hyzers is a huge feel thing, not a mechanical math thing.

I know it's a huge feel thing, but I've also experienced that your feeling and intuition can be sharpened if you marry the feeling and intuition with some concrete information as well to reinforce it. Just as most people do with looking at the other more concrete data like distance from the tee, remaining distance to the pin, measuring throws and taking that information and associating it with the feeling of the throw to create a more holistic understanding. When you film yourself (concrete data) you see how easy it is for your feelings to misinform you, and you use that reconcile the differences.

I'm just trying to do a bit more of that, but not everyone has a disposition to where they will benefit from doing that, so I think that's where some of the disconnect lies. There's a recent video on Paul U's channel with Simon about putting that has a funny interaction that I think encapsulates this. Paul is asking Simon a bunch of very specific mechanical putting questions and Simon replies with, "I've literally never had any of these thoughts before." It seems like Paul is more analytical and Simon is more feeling-based and that might result in some big differences in how they train and approach things.

 

[RowingBoats]

I just don't want people to reply as if I'm a some player who is rounding extremely and throwing huge swooping nose up air bounces into the trees instead of discussing this topic at a level beyond that. Anytime I post my form, I hope someone will find something major I need to fix so I can fix it ASAP, but lately in dedicated form review threads, I've been receiving advice that, when I work on, I experience it as a form tweak and not a 'drastic' change akin to an overhaul.

Someone pointed out a major issue with your form in this very thread. Sw22 gave a video to look at as well.

It seems like you might not understand fully what rounding means and causes. It's all good man I'm not at all trying to be negative but I'd say you have a full blown revelation to make still. I don't even think you will have a hard time making the change and it makes things so much easier when you fix this. But it was, at least for me, something that dramatically impacted my "goal" in the swing.

Again this just isn't the thread for a form review though.

Seems like you understand now that there are tons of styles possible and that choosing important angle distinctions is subjective so I hope you are able to tailor your hyzer categories to your own game

 

[disc-golf-neil]

Someone pointed out a major issue with your form in this very thread. Sw22 gave a video to look at as well.

This is all related to someone saying my form will "drastically" change probably.

Are you saying I'm "drastically" rounding instead of a small or moderate amount which would require a drastic change to fix it, rather than tweaking timing (to avoid the arm lag) and possibly reaching wider?

I've had rounding come and go it seems, it comes back at full power or when I focus on other things and needs to be repeatedly worked on until it really sinks in.

From what I can tell, most of the fundamentals are clearly there, there's plenty of things to improve with tweaks and moderate changes. To me drastic is like, a fundamental form piece is so messed up or missing that you mind as well start over and rebuild.

 

[HyooMac]

Regarding the topic of Tech Disc for just a minute, I can't help wondering if this is a technology that will solve a longstanding problem, or if it's a technology is search of a problem to solve.

I realize this risks an "old man shakes fist at sky" moment - but the sport has existed for years, and players have learned and improved,without this data. I'm open to the idea that having this data could speed improvement, make form development more efficient, etc. Speed guns, computer simulators, the Iron Byron have all found their place in modern sports - and they were probably looked at skeptically when they first arrived. Maybe this will become a standard tool for teaching and coaching disc golf. Or it will find its niche in the accessories market (Flight Towel, Rip it Grip). Maybe it will be picked up by manufacturers, or the PDGA (another acquisition?). Or maybe its just a fad. Time will tell.

 

[RowingBoats]

This is all related to someone saying my form will "drastically" change probably.

So you're saying I'm "drastically" rounding instead of a small or moderate amount? And that a drastic change would be required to fix it, rather than tweaking timing (to avoid the arm lag) and possibly reaching wider.

I've had rounding come and go it seems, it comes back at full power or when I focus on other things and needs to be repeatedly worked on until it really sinks in.

From what I can tell, most of the fundamentals are clearly there, there's plenty of things to improve with tweaks and moderate changes, but I shouldn't need to drastically rebuild something due to major fundamental issue.

I am just saying that if you are rounding at all, there is likely going to be a dramatic shift in how you conceptualize the swing.

This is so far off topic now though. I will just say that if you are trying to say that there are smaller more acceptable categories of rounding, and that it comes and goes, I think you will benefit from really, really exploring why exactly this leaks a lot of power AND accuracy. And yes I posit this can definitely cause you a dramatic shift in focus and conceptualization of your swing.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

shift in focus and conceptualization of your swing.

Sure, but this also avoids saying a dramatic change in physical form.

There are instances of rounding that are much easier or much harder to fix, and the degree at which it is robbing you of power and accuracy is probably related to how severe the rounding is, so yes, I would say one is more acceptable than the other. One could be easier to fix and another could be too hard to fix without rebuilding altogether.

I could definitely be missing some concepts that would change my conceptualization of the swing though, but I've been hearing the big ones so many times now that they are hard to forget.

 

[RowingBoats]

There are instances of rounding that are much easier or much harder to fix

How do you know this if your rounding issues come and go and most recently in your footage are visible?

After you actually fix it I'm curious what you end up saying and feeling.

 

[disc-golf-neil]

How do you know this if your rounding issues come and go and most recently in your footage are visible?

After you actually fix it I'm curious what you end up saying and feeling.

Because it's not just about rounding. As an abstraction, take most specific form issues and compare it to something approximating an ideal; the further from the ideal it is, the more severe the issue typically is. I'm not saying any amount of rounding is acceptable enough to be ignored, but the closer it is to the ideal the closer to acceptable it becomes.

For some people, rounding is the primary way they throw, pulling the disc behind their side almost, whereas other people, it's something that is creeping into a throw form that is not primarily built upon rounding. The former will generally be much harder to fix.

My rounding issue comes back mostly when I go for max power because going for max power is a common time when a breakdown in form occurs, but also, because after mostly fixing it previously, I started testing out and tweaking other stuff too soon before the fix was deeply ingrained. Based on this feedback though, when I played today I worked on rounding on every throw and I'll focus on it longer before moving on this time to let it sink in more deeply.

After you actually fix it I'm curious what you end up saying and feeling.

What are you curious about specifically?