The Perfect Anhyzer/Hyzer

[rhatton1]

He's made several blanket statements about this post alone, such as whether or not I'm throwing nose up, about which he is wrong. Even when I can demonstrate why he's wrong, I know he will never acknowledge that he was wrong or that he was a jerk about how he delivered his opinion. I know the type all too well. People should be able to disagree without resorting to personal insults. I'm disappointed in myself when I sink to that level, which I have on occasion.

You keep saying he's wrong, then lots of what you write make me suspect he's not. You won't provide any proof that he's wrong except saying it over and over. I've got a few ideas as to what you are doing incorrectly and why doing what you are doing is working for you - but without any proof - ie video - they are just ideas There are lots of wrong ways to get to the same dubious fix, I can't reiterate this enough - we have all done this, we have all found what we thought was the missing link on the quest for perfect form whilst practising on the field , mostly they just turned out to be little fixes for something else that wasn't done perfectly.

What Sidewinder has done again and again is to help people find the correct feeling and mechanics. He has done this through videos and text, and crucially he has shown what he is talking about by showing the similarities in top players form - not the differences in these players, of which there are many, but the key things that make up the good/perfect drive.

If you look at the lead card driving at EO 2013 you can see loads of differences in the form but you can see a number of core similarities that are almost identical, these are the things he focuses on. You just seem to be picking the wrong target to attack in SW.

There is loads of rubbish advice out there, there is loads of the same old stuff rolled out again and again and I totally agree it is maddening, I may well swing for the next person that tells me increased spin turns a disc over. However you are not hearing that stuff from SW, nor from HUB, although you probably will hear it out on the course from even the best players. Feel ain't real, but technical breakdown with evidence and the ability to then suggest drills to improve is.

The problem is those drills won't help everyone. What works for one doesn't work for another, that's why lots of other people try and put their own takes on the accepted and provable wisdom, and the fifth explanation or the 25th is the one that clicks for someone - but that fifth explanation is still based on the same core provable evidence based knowledge.

That knowledge says the easiest way to throw the perfect Hyzer anhyzer is to keep everything else the same and change body angle at the waist. This is by far the most repeatable, controlled and accurate way, this is the evidence backed accepted theory on these forums and hopefully everywhere else Disc Golf until such time you or someone else can prove otherwise, that proof is not saying "well it works for me"

 

[rhatton1]

Coming back to this image -

I've just made a video but the sound was crap and I can't be bothered to reshoot it. Look at the image look at where the stamp has rotated.

Basically in a good drive the disc does not rotate 180 degrees - that would be indicative of a slip.

The disc will rotate up to about 270 degrees. That's where all of your stuff about thumb in and out creating hyzer/anhyzer just makes no sense.

Now look at this image -

That is a shot where the disc slips out before being pulled through the pivot.

which one of these images does your description of this technique look like it will work on?

Also straight line pull image instead of the wide rail just to keep things fair -

(none of these images are exact and ignore the text but they are good enough for this)

 

[clard]

Let me know if you are ever in Pennsylvania, rhatton. I'd like to buy you a beer.

 

[josephreese]

Sometimes the passion that comes with discovery makes us want to share. It can also make us appear foolish when we fail to remember that what we've learned is dwarfed by what those who came before us learned. Honestly, I'm humbled by the patience some of the long-timers are showing in this thread. I never would have thought I'd see it on a message board. Kudos and thank you.

 

[Agricolae]

While different, this place becomes a fountain of shared knowledge as was DGR. DGR, the next generation, perhaps? Thanks, guys. (Still waiting for JR to post his next novel; it's been awhile, so I imagine it will rival "War and Peace.")

 

[sidewinder22]

There are three basic techniques I found: 1. Angle the disc by bending the wrist. 2. Angle the disc by bending the spine. 3. Angle the disc by adjusting the grip. Of these three, the last is the one I found most effective and easy to control. There are other methods such as rolling the wrist at the last moment, but this is extremely difficult to do well with any sort of consistency.
Below is an illustration I drew to help clarify things.

It doesn't wobble, not even a little. The spin imparted to a disc comes primarily from snap, the 'hammer' weight shift as the bulk of the disc is whipped around the index finger. (Force from wrist rotation and elbow opening up also impart some spin, but mostly they're accelerating the disc, the final snap out of the grip gives the bulk of rotation.) If the disc is angled, you would get OAT if the plane of rotation didn't match the plane of the disc angle. With this technique, the disc rotates on a plane separate than the plane of the throwing arm. If there were OAT, the raised left edge of the disc would rotate around to become the nose of the disc, but this doesn't happen. Instead, the disc leaves the hand rotating flat to it's own angle. The disc's linear acceleration isn't hampered by the disc being angled - it still transfers to forward momentum the same, but the snap-imparted rotation is probably not optimal, but it DOES spin the disc on its angled plane.

So you are rotating your wrist aka pronation or supination.

 

[TheBeardedFatGuy]

So you are rotating your wrist aka pronation or supination.

I only mentioned rolling the wrist under by way of acknowledging that some accomplish anhyzer doing it. I'm not one of them. Timing anything to occur during an instant of the the split second it takes to drive is nigh impossible for me. Things like turning the wrist under, or not tightening your grip until right at the hit, while I'm sure some do these things, are beyond me. My philosophy is get the set up right, slowly start things moving in the right sequence, then explode. Currently I'm driving from a stand still instead of using a run-up or x-step. I used an x-step for a while when I was learning, but I wasn't happy with my lack of accuracy, so I figured I'd back off to a standing drive until I had it optimized. When I hit the wall that says I'm not going to improve until I add in an x-step, I'll work on that, but I definitely think there's benefit in maximizing your standing drive first. I think a lot of new players could benefit from doing this.

The order i do things is:

1. Line up my feet, hips and shoulders in line with my target
2. Extend my disc arm towards the target and set my grip and arm and disc angle
3. reach back 180 degrees, weight on the back foot, rotating the hips and off shoulder back.
4. Pause and verify everything is correct such as balance, grip firmness, arm height and disc angle.
5. Start shifting the hips forward and opening them up, slowly.
6 Begin pulling with the shoulder,slowly, starting the torso turning, weight starts to shift forward.
7 Accelerate with the elbow, weight shifts onto forward leg. At this point I know what's happening, but I'm not able to affect it much because it's happening too fast. The elbow reaches its limit and the forearm is catapulted around horizontally. Just before the arm reaches the apex, the wrist opens up and the disc rips out of the grip.
8. Follow through with rotation until back leg is now in front and off arm is pointing at the target.

 

[TheBeardedFatGuy]

The disc will rotate up to about 270 degrees. That's where all of your stuff about thumb in and out creating hyzer/anhyzer just makes no sense.

The first overhead shot is good, but the others are somewhat confusing to me. I notice there's a clock in there with 12,3,6 and 9 on it. Going from my OP AND your first pic, on the reach back the grip is at 9 O'clock (step 1 of your pic, assumes 12 O'clock is towards the target). By Image 7, his grip is nearly to 12 O'clock on the disc. Unfortunately the next steps aren't there so we can't see the moment the disc leaves the grip. for me, it's at or just before 3 O'clock, give or take a few minutes. Earlier and its slipped out of my grip, Later and I've griplocked it.

 

[TheBeardedFatGuy]

Found this older website where they are describing exactly the grip I've been talking about:

http://www.wolfdenwebdesign.com/planetdiscgolf/scurve.html

http://www.wolfdenwebdesign.com/planetdiscgolf/grips.html

 

[slowplastic]

That website also tells you to X-step by pointing your back foot 180 degrees away from the target and your plant foot 180 degrees at the target.

 

[sidewinder22]

Found this older website where they are describing exactly the grip I've been talking about:

http://www.wolfdenwebdesign.com/planetdiscgolf/scurve.html

http://www.wolfdenwebdesign.com/planetdiscgolf/grips.html

Where else are you getting your advice from?

 

[TheBeardedFatGuy]

That website also tells you to X-step by pointing your back foot 180 degrees away from the target and your plant foot 180 degrees at the target.

If you talk about the torso, it does face 180 degrees away from the target, then goes past the 0 degree mark with the follow through, but the feet don't do that. The 'dance steps' shown there aren't quite accurate.

 

[TheBeardedFatGuy]

Where else are you getting your advice from?

Sorry, I'm not sure what you are saying. You do know it was me who posted those links, right? Did you even read what I wrote? I just found this site, it wasn't a source of my advice.

 

[rhatton1]

I only mentioned rolling the wrist under by way of acknowledging that some accomplish anhyzer doing it. I'm not one of them. Timing anything to occur during an instant of the the split second it takes to drive is nigh impossible for me. .

Are you sure? Have you filmed yourself? What we think we are doing and what we are doing is never normally the same. I know that comes off as patronising, i'm not trying to be, but from everything you have described I would put money on video showing you rolling your wrist over unintentionally through the Hit and your palm facing slightly skywards through the follow through.

I would be pretty certain that the you are also doing this with the Hyzer grip or the flat shot. The difference being you are getting the nose down more with the "anhyzer grip" so the OAT'd right turn is not being offset by the nose up of the "hyzer and flat grips" - this all syncs with the distances you are talking about getting. I'm also curious does this technique work for you with putters and mids as well or only drivers?

I know you know the difference between nose up and nose down. I have worked with players that know too and would swear blind that they were throwing nose down. It's taken film to prove to them that they aren't. (I've been one of those players....) the players I hate/love working with the most are those that have read stuff and are certain they are doing what they have read but have never studied video of themselves (again that was me ....) it means you have to prove to them they aren't doing what they think they are doing and to break whatever weird muscle memory they have developed. Those that come to you a blank slate with no preconceived ideas are so much easier to teach.

 

[TheBeardedFatGuy]

Are you sure? Have you filmed yourself? What we think we are doing and what we are doing is never normally the same.

As I've said, I don't have video of this. I did have a friend video me when I was first learning, but that was ages ago and the footage was awful (both the film quality and the subject). From results evidence, I'm throwing a lot better since then. I do have my buddy watch my drives on occasion and offer his observations.

Look, anything is possible. I agree, without video it's hard to say exactly what is happening at the most energetic moment o the drive, but I still doubt it's as you describe. Take my regular, non-tilted drive. If I throw it right, it leaves my grip flat to the ground. If I've got enough snap, it flies dead straight (ish) fand fades for around 300' total distance. My Wave doesn't tend to S-curve with good snap. Because the disc is rarely more than 4 or 5' above the ground for its entire flight, and the visual cues, I'd say it's not nose up or off axis. When I have screwed up and release nose up at an angle other than my arm is moving, it climbs immediately, quickly stalling out, and plummets to the left. When I mess my drive up, I'm far more likely to just have my arm angle too high (reaching back a little low and releasing higher) and the disc goes too high. Though it's angled up and it's flight is shorter, I wouldn't call that nose up because I did release the disc on its own plane, it's just the plane is angled too high.

It would be far simpler than me figuring out how to get video footage of this for you to just try it during one of your practice drives. True, your results might not be the same as mine as no two people drive exactly alike, but you just might be surprised with what happens. Or you might come back with more insight, either way is good.

 

[m_Krakov]

As I've said, I don't have video of this. I did have a friend video me when I was first learning, but that was ages ago and the footage was awful (both the film quality and the subject). From results evidence, I'm throwing a lot better since then. I do have my buddy watch my drives on occasion and offer his observations.

Look, anything is possible. I agree, without video it's hard to say exactly what is happening at the most energetic moment o the drive, but I still doubt it's as you describe. Take my regular, non-tilted drive. If I throw it right, it leaves my grip flat to the ground. If I've got enough snap, it flies dead straight (ish) fand fades for around 300' total distance. My Wave doesn't tend to S-curve with good snap. Because the disc is rarely more than 4 or 5' above the ground for its entire flight, and the visual cues, I'd say it's not nose up or off axis. When I have screwed up and release nose up at an angle other than my arm is moving, it climbs immediately, quickly stalling out, and plummets to the left. When I mess my drive up, I'm far more likely to just have my arm angle too high (reaching back a little low and releasing higher) and the disc goes too high. Though it's angled up and it's flight is shorter, I wouldn't call that nose up because I did release the disc on its own plane, it's just the plane is angled too high.

It would be far simpler than me figuring out how to get video footage of this for you to just try it during one of your practice drives. True, your results might not be the same as mine as no two people drive exactly alike, but you just might be surprised with what happens. Or you might come back with more insight, either way is good.

No one is buying your snake oil. You got video, but you know you're full of it and afraid to show it.

 

[rhatton1]

I do play with thumb position. towards the edge of the disc it's easier to get a more nose down throw. Towards the center it's easier to get a more nose up throw. I say it's easier to as neither one necessarily causes nose up or nose down, it's just easier to achieve with those thumb positions.

I tend to go just off the flight plate as it gives more control and a more consistent release and I don't practice anywhere near enough to happily control the in and out positions on the course.

 

[DGHippie]

For the record, I think it was pretty heroic the way he jumped into the forums swinging after playing disc golf for 18 whole months. Calling out people that have spent more time doing field work than he has playing the game. I can't see how he would describe a 300' throw with a 11 speed disc as having good snap or describing a disc as air braking but refusing to believe the nose is angled up. His advice is not sound from a high level perspective, but not everyone is trying to develop real sound mechanics. Plenty of people are happy torquing fast discs for "big" distance. Maybe his tips will help people that have given up on full/half hitting and just want to play. Let's make the title reflect that sentiment and move on. Count my vote toward "Noob Tricks for Non Snappers"

 

[DiscLoser1]

For the record, I think it was pretty heroic the way he jumped into the forums swinging after playing disc golf for 18 whole months. Calling out people that have spent more time doing field work than he has playing the game. I can't see how he would describe a 300' throw with a 11 speed disc as having good snap or describing a disc as air braking but refusing to believe the nose is angled up. His advice is not sound from a high level perspective, but not everyone is trying to develop real sound mechanics. Plenty of people are happy torquing fast discs for "big" distance. Maybe his tips will help people that have given up on full/half hitting and just want to play. Let's make the title reflect that sentiment and move on. Count my vote toward "Noob Tricks for Non Snappers"

You freakin nailed it right there.

My alternate titles just don't have the witty panache as yours: "Stupid Disc Golf Tricks" or "Dinking and Dunking for Dummies".

 

[AmsterdamHeavy]

For the record, I think it was pretty heroic the way he jumped into the forums swinging after playing disc golf for 18 whole months. Calling out people that have spent more time doing field work than he has playing the game. I can't see how he would describe a 300' throw with a 11 speed disc as having good snap or describing a disc as air braking but refusing to believe the nose is angled up. His advice is not sound from a high level perspective, but not everyone is trying to develop real sound mechanics. Plenty of people are happy torquing fast discs for "big" distance. Maybe his tips will help people that have given up on full/half hitting and just want to play. Let's make the title reflect that sentiment and move on. Count my vote toward "Noob Tricks for Non Snappers"

I did these same things my first 6 months or so. The lack of progress and thoughts contrary to what the old hands put forth as good advice made me reassess what I was doing. My personal experience with all of this was that it was an utter waste of time - I would have been better served not playing with all of that silly wrist stuff and just throwing an Archangel until I could get a half-assed 300 ft hyzer flip off. So, I dont think its good advice for people starting out at all.

Its pretty obvious to me that someone hitting 400 ft knows something I dont. Readily dismissing that knowledge seems at a minimum obstinate and at worst delusional.

I mean, if someone can out drive you by 100-150 ft, you probably shouldnt be arguing the finer points of technique with them...