What is the legal way (if any) to beat in a disc?

[Three Putt]

To actually answer the question: "wear from usage during play and the moderate sanding of discs to smooth molding imperfections or scrapes."

Watched a pro player throw a KC Roc against the side of a park bathroom wall between rounds once. He lost his Roc in the early round and didn't have another one beat in and ready to go. This all happened with the TD and several other members of the pro field in the pavilion watching/laughing at him. I didn't get the feeling that anybody considered that rule to be something that was to be strictly enforced.

 

[Steve West]

Watched a pro player throw a KC Roc against the side of a park bathroom wall between rounds once. He lost his Roc in the early round and didn't have another one beat in and ready to go. This all happened with the TD and several other members of the pro field in the pavilion watching/laughing at him. I didn't get the feeling that anybody considered that rule to be something that was to be strictly enforced.

They probably considered what he was doing to be within what they feel is "play".

He was throwing it, not taking a Dremel tool to the edge.

 

[Timeetyo]

They probably considered what he was doing to be within what they feel is "play".

He was throwing it, not taking a Dremel tool to the edge.

Exactly. Just like practicing thumbers in a parking lot. ..or my favorite indoor "field work" driving practice with a concrete wall as a backstop.

 

[TAFL]

I've always thrown the new discs into walls and fences and the ground, or perhaps stomped on them. I've always want to find an old washing machine and pull the wringer off it and see if running a new disc through it a time or two would accomplish the job.

 

[StevenSeagal]

This got a laugh out of me.

 

[FredV]

legal disc beating

The current rule prohibits disc modifications that alter the original flight characteristics of the disc. The rule goes on to describe the exception to the rule. Standards of interpretation call for a general rule to be interpreted broadly and exceptions to be construed narrowly. Here that means, the only flight altering disc modifications that are permitted under the exception clause are those that occur as a result of the in-play treatment a disc receives. Treatments away from the playing situation, that are done to mimic those that occur during play, are outside the narrow exceptions defined in the rule.
As a practical matter, it is virtually impossible to distinguish a bent rim that happened during play and one that happened as a result of intentional slamming against objects in the privacy of your back yard. That fact does not change the requirements placed on the individual by the rule. Open declarations advising others to ignore the rule place the speaker and the listener in some jeopardy of claims that they are using an illegal disc.
(Note: The current rule does confuse things a bit, by including in the exceptions section a provision for moderate sanding. As moderate sanding of scrapes and mold imperfections are not themselves modifications that alter the original flight characteristics, that treatment should stand alone as something permitted to lessen the flight altering effects of in-play modifications or production defects. The rule has other enforcement/clarity problems, but the prohibition against concentrated distortion treatments is not ambiguous.)

 

[garublador]

The current rule prohibits disc modifications that alter the original flight characteristics of the disc. The rule goes on to describe the exception to the rule. Standards of interpretation call for a general rule to be interpreted broadly and exceptions to be construed narrowly. Here that means, the only flight altering disc modifications that are permitted under the exception clause are those that occur as a result of the in-play treatment a disc receives. Treatments away from the playing situation, that are done to mimic those that occur during play, are outside the narrow exceptions defined in the rule.
As a practical matter, it is virtually impossible to distinguish a bent rim that happened during play and one that happened as a result of intentional slamming against objects in the privacy of your back yard. That fact does not change the requirements placed on the individual by the rule. Open declarations advising others to ignore the rule place the speaker and the listener in some jeopardy of claims that they are using an illegal disc.
(Note: The current rule does confuse things a bit, by including in the exceptions section a provision for moderate sanding. As moderate sanding of scrapes and mold imperfections are not themselves modifications that alter the original flight characteristics, that treatment should stand alone as something permitted to lessen the flight altering effects of in-play modifications or production defects. The rule has other enforcement/clarity problems, but the prohibition against concentrated distortion treatments is not ambiguous.)

At some point you have to recognize that the rules are meant to be interpreted a bit rather than strictly adhered to based on how they're written. It's obvious that the rule is interpreted by pretty much every TD is that artificially "beating" (bending, scraping, light sanding) is OK, but "modifying" (sanding, melting, shaving) to change the flight characteristics is usually not OK. Otherwise any disc that has been thrown outside of sanctioned PDGA play would be illegal as well as any that have been bent by any other means (shipping, sitting in the heat, etc.), which is almost every single disc.

 

[FredV]

Where widely accepted practices are contrary to a rule you have a good start toward changing the rule. TDs have decision making prerogatives defined under the rules. They do not operate as a separate decision makers where they can ignore an individual's claim that a disc is illegal. Consider people who read the rule and do not share in the general disregard for it. Consider people who are not confident in consistent TD behaviors and would not put their competitive position in any risk that another player can effectively force a TD to comply with the rule. I am not a fan of the rule, but I am a fan of respect for rules. Our relations in completion should not depend on rules that the well-liked can defy while others fear strict enforcement. Polling all TDs concerning the rule will not bring a reliable promise that they will defy the rule under all circumstances. Ask them about improving the rule and move that along.

 

[garublador]

Consider people who read the rule and do not share in the general disregard for it.

In this case it isn't general disregard, it's universal. I can't imagine anyone legitimately believing that only discs that haven't changed shape at all since manufacture time or been used for anything other than sanctioned tournament play are legal.

Some rules are so difficult to word explicitly that doing so would make them so difficult to read you'd have done more harm than good in spending the time to get it worded perfectly. If you never leave any room for interpretation then there will always be loop holes that people can exploit to get an unfair advantage. I'm not saying there isn't room for improvement, but when people take a step back and take the time to understand the intent of the rule rather than getting pedantic with the semantics of how it's written the game is better overall.

 

[scarpfish]

Has anyone ever encountered a circumstance where a disc was challenged at a tournament due to it possibly having post-production modifications? I certainly haven't.

We don't enforce this rule for the same reason we don't actively hunt for overweight discs, because there are a whole lot of other things our minds need to be on when playing, and a whole lot of other things the a TD needs to be doing while running the event. If we enforced such rules to the letter of the law, we'd have no time left to have an event.

 

[FredV]

We are well on our way to an agreement that the rules concerning disc modifications do not work. I also agree that translating our ideas of fairness into rules is an imperfect effort. However, the latest comments do show promise that we can do a better job of articulating our views concerning the treatment of discs.
I am proof that there is not universal disregard for the rules. These pages are proof that not all people read the rules well and apply them reasonably. When we see a defect in the rules we can do nothing and let the organization fall into a pattern of quarrels or disrespect for the rules. Then we instruct others that rules are to be dismissed in favor our "better" judgment. Or, we can employ that same judgment in the making of a new rule upon which we can all truly rely.
Peer pressure may have operated deeply and widely here so that TDs may have no fear of trouble and therefore see no need to address this issue. I don't see that lasting long.

 

[garublador]

We are well on our way to an agreement that the rules concerning disc modifications do not work.

We are no where near that. They clearly work and have worked well for three decades.

I am proof that there is not universal disregard for the rules.

I don't believe for a second that you believe that all discs are illegal, which is what you get if you read the rule literally with no interpretation. I believe you are being pedantic to the point of ridiculousness to convince yourself you are winning an argument on the internet.

 

[FredV]

See my recent post under "Original Flight Characteristics". Thanks for the help, really!

 

[loki the trickster]

Here is the rules about what is a legal disc http://www.pdga.com/rules/official-rules-disc-golf/801-general/80102-discs-used-in-play

As long as you disc is not sanded beyond belief,cutting notches or cutting the bead off of a disc like a kc aviar your good.

 

[araytx]

Has anyone ever encountered a circumstance where a disc was challenged at a tournament due to it possibly having post-production modifications? I certainly haven't.

Yes, but it was a rare, unique situation. If I see it once again in my lifetime, it would be equally as unusual. As scarp alludes to, I would venture to say that the chances of someone playing a legitimately reasonably full disc golf tournament life and not ever seeing it occur are very high -- even given that those "possibly illegal discs" are challenged.

We don't enforce this rule for the same reason we don't actively hunt for overweight discs, because there are a whole lot of other things our minds need to be on when playing, and a whole lot of other things the a TD needs to be doing while running the event. If we enforced such rules to the letter of the law, we'd have no time left to have an event.

To some degree ... but also primarily because this is something you notice, not something you would look for. When I guy drops his putter on a bench and I hear a wood block-like "clunk", then I ask him to see the disc. And I find a disc which anyone can tell it;s well over 200g; 280is what the TD later told me.

We are well on our way to an agreement that the rules concerning disc modifications do not work. I also agree that translating our ideas of fairness into rules is an imperfect effort. However, the latest comments do show promise that we can do a better job of articulating our views concerning the treatment of discs.
I am proof that there is not universal disregard for the rules. These pages are proof that not all people read the rules well and apply them reasonably. When we see a defect in the rules we can do nothing and let the organization fall into a pattern of quarrels or disrespect for the rules. Then we instruct others that rules are to be dismissed in favor our "better" judgment. Or, we can employ that same judgment in the making of a new rule upon which we can all truly rely.
Peer pressure may have operated deeply and widely here so that TDs may have no fear of trouble and therefore see no need to address this issue. I don't see that lasting long.

Not a chance. Your premise is faulty, in that you term "seasoning" your disc in the back yard by "throwing it against something repeatedly" or other methods of exposing the disc to contact via a disc golf release is "skirting" the letter of the rule. I can reasonably contend that it is not. If I have a basket in my back yard and putt 1000 times a day from 5 feet or 10 feet away for three weeks before I decide that's my driving putter, is that seasoning the disc illegally or is it play? I say that's wear and tear from play, and I don't see how you can argue differently.




Now that that's agreed upon, where is the line? What if I putt the same amount of times with a mid range or a driver? I know plenty of people to normally putt with their mid or driver. Is that the line? Is that illegal seasoning or play ?-- and how is it different from the above? I say it's the same. And by extension, what if I can't afford a practice basket, so I have my own homemade one with string twine and whatever leftover wood I could find? Illegal seasoning or play? What if I don't have either and I practice putting against a tree at the neighborhood park? What about the same with a mid or driver? ...And by extension what if I need to practice my technical woods shots and I live near no woods, and the only place to practice accuracy is by hitting a natural target at the local neighborhood park? And what if I do that a lot? I think all of those are play. Whether I throw (a disc golf throw -- BH, FH, OH, CW, or putt) my disc in the backyard into a net, into the fence, or into another object, I am still practicing my throw and my release. That's practicing disc golf, and it's unequivocally play.

The thing your premise is standing on is that the backyard throwing the disc into objects is not "play" -- but I contend it is.

 

[FredV]

Araytx,
I apologize if I drew you into this discussion in an aggravated state, as a result of my strict portrayal of the rule. It was a "straw man" rhetorical device. You have done an excellent job of showing how people have taken the rule concerning "usage during play" and fairly construed it to include practice, even intense practice. That has contributed to this discussion about what the rule says and what people do.
It would be mistake to take my comments as an attempt to curtail the things you do. My concerns point in the direction of better rule making, where nothing you have described would be prohibited. A good look at the recent posts shows that some believe the rule concerning in-play modifications is universally disregarded, while others believe that there is no need to change the rule because everyone has the same understanding of what the rule really means. Those who disregard the rule may say, as you and I do, that "during play" could not reasonably mean "only on a disc golf course." But, believing they have dispensed with the rule, they then go on to do things away from the play and practice environments that are nothing like what naturally happens to a disc. Again, while I move past the strict wording of the rule, I would still expect that the PDGA would not expressly approve some the extreme measures we have noticed.
My personal view concerning disc treatments is rather liberal and I would be glad to see the rules reflect a wider range of treatments we may do. Clarity and enforceability should be our guides, even while the spirit of the rules will inevitably be the basis of our final judgement.
Lastly, I would also ask that you refrain from putting words into my mouth for the purpose of making your next point. That is unnecessary, given the likely agreement we have about acceptable disc treatments.

 

[mark996]

So...did something happen to you that got you THIS fired up about probably the most under utilized set of rules in the rule book? I think you need a woman my friend.

 

[bradharris]

Fred, you can apply some common sense here. When I play, my discs tend to find a lot of trees, walls, pavement, etc that season them. Under "normal" play, the change in flight is gradual. The alternative might be to spend an afternoon throwing a disc against trees, walls, pavement, etc. The end result is the same, but it just gets there faster.

Given that both the disc used in normal play and the one beaten up in one afternoon are in essentially the same state, why call one illegal and the other not?

 

[FredV]

So...did something happen to you that got you THIS fired up about probably the most under utilized set of rules in the rule book? I think you need a woman my friend.

Careful reading of my recent posts will reveal how I came to this level of interest in the rules concerning discs. Careful examination of your own internal struggles would be necessary for the rest of use to guess how you came to confuse these issues with the need for a woman. I can only help you with the disc issue.

 

[mark996]

I'm confident you'd be the last person I'd go to for a disc issue. You need to throw more discs and stop worry about how much it how little you can change the properties of said disc. You wouldn't happen to be a Dr would you?