Disc tech discussion. Calibrated scales in tournaments? Profile gauges? Stiffness tests?

[Sewer bill]

For years I have enjoyed shopping for and using illegal weight discs, they perform better in wind and perform closer to the advertised flight numbers. I won't name names but I'm not the only one doing this and there are definitely touring pros doing it too.

It seems so silly that there is a pdga max weight and it's completely unenforced across the board. The obvious solution would be to instruct manufacturers to scrap them if they come out too heavy but we all know that's not going to happen. The next obvious solution is a tech inspection at events but disc golfers being disc golfers I wouldn't trust some random bill and a triple beam he leaves laying in his trunk.

Similarly, when will profile gauges be utilized, go no go gauges are extremely common in manufacturing and it would take minimal effort on the pdga to offer a shim stock leaf of laser cut wing profiles to offer to check disc legality.

Also why do we have a stiffness range in disc approval process if it's tested at room temperature and people can play with them below freezing, what's the point?

Can we just let composites into the game already? A carbon fiber or kevlar composite can be made just as flexible as a regular plastic one just by resin type choice.

Are we going to ignore these loopholes forever or what line in the sand is too far? I truly feel like we are stifling innovation and simultaneously writing in permanent loopholes to be exploited.

 

[ru4por]

I think your question is about ethics, not disc standards.

 

[Sewer bill]

I think your question is about ethics, not disc standards.

The standards exist why are they not enforced? I get not needing to bother with low tier tournaments but why aren't they at least weighing discs on the pro tour? Who are these standards for if not the upper echelon of disc golf?

It clearly isn't anything to do with safety otherwise stiffness would be rated at 0° and weight would be enforced on the cooling table next to the scrap bin.

 

[ru4por]

Rules in disc golf are generally self enforced.

 

[Sewer bill]

Rules in disc golf are generally self enforced.

Which brings us to, why would the pdga intentionally stifle innovation in disc golf discs with unenforced arbitrary rules?

 

[ru4por]

I don't really see them as arbitrary. There are some fairly obvious reasons for standards, some of which you are look to circumvent, for advantage. Few sports endorse equipment without standards. Some of these standards are likely outdated....set for limits on poleholes, courses, length, plastics....but, reviewing and updating those standards, is a different question. I will assume that if these were causing disc manufacturing companies strife, they possess plenty of leverage to effect change.

 

[Sewer bill]

None of the reasons are obvious. It's not safety it's not ease of manufacturing it's not consistency in the final product it's all made up and without any enforcement mechanism. Next to players having to self enforce rules it's the second biggest hole in the disc golf sport.

If a rule or standard is unequivocally unenforced and has no enforcement mechanism, and I have to trust that another person I am competing against is following it based on nothing but my own trust, that rule is arbitrary.

My discretion to trust that someone is following the rule or standard is independent of the rule or standard that is not being enforced.

 

[ThrowaEnvy]

Ummm I think it is obvious. Weight, flexibility and rim profile are all to make discs less lethal.

Pretty sure my star scorpions wouldn't be approved now, big fat wide sharp rim 186g... prone to skipping. When I hit trees you can hear the difference. Sounds like a one chop lumberjack out there.

 

[ru4por]

Shrug....I maintain, I think you're questioning ethics, not standards. I will acquiesce to the input of others.

 

[BillFleming]

Baseball doesn't allow 'corked' bats, but they don't check them prior to a game. Bats only get when someone has an issue with another player's bat or the bat breaks.

Golf balls don't get measured before rounds.

About the only sport that has checks (that I'm aware of) is American football. The balls are weighed beforehand, but that doesn't keep someone from deflating or adding air to them after they are weighed.

Let's say every disc is weighed before the round.....how early are you willing to get to a course to get your discs checked? And what is to keep you from switching out your discs after they've been weighed?

 

[Sewer bill]

Ummm I think it is obvious. Weight, flexibility and rim profile are all to make discs less lethal.

Pretty sure my star scorpions wouldn't be approved now, big fat wide sharp rim 186g... prone to skipping. When I hit trees you can hear the difference. Sounds like a one chop lumberjack out there.

Then we should be throwing sponges. A friend of mine shattered someone's eye socket on a hot day with a destroyer, innova had to settle out of court.

Discs are already lethal if thrown hard. I could probably end someone with a soft magnet at close range.

If safety is the specific goal wing profiles should be blunted to spread the impact load but they keep making pointy heavy discs in stiff plastic.

 

[Sewer bill]

Let's say every disc is weighed before the round.....how early are you willing to get to a course to get your discs checked? And what is to keep you from switching out your discs after they've been weighed?

2-3 hours, the prospect of being dnf'd for skirting the rules.

 

[BillFleming]

2-3 hours, the prospect of being dnf'd for skirting the rules.

But if a player switched out discs, how will anyone know? You are back to where disc golf was before weighing/checking....someone has to notice/believe a disc is not legal and report it. Then it needs to be checked (again). So why have the initial weigh-in/check if someone can just swap out a 'checked' disc for an 'unchecked' one? And don't say the TD/checker can place a mark on the disc.....player's won't agree to that - heck soon the disc would be covered in marks. Can't go by color or stamp....too easy to get matching discs with different weights, etc. An example is the Gateway Ninja.....if you see a Gateway Ninja being thrown.....is it legal or illegal? One version of the Gateway Ninja is PDGA legal, but the previous version is illegal. True, measuring it would tell which it is, but then the player could swap out the legal Ninja for an illegal one and I'm not sure anyone could tell the difference.

 

[F.Luke]

… A friend of mine shattered someone's eye socket on a hot day with a destroyer, innova had to settle out of court….

This sounds entirely untrue.

 

[Sewer bill]

This sounds entirely untrue.

I'm not going to doxx my friend but I can answer everything available from the transcript that won't identify him.

 

[Sewer bill]

But if a player switched out discs, how will anyone know? You are back to where disc golf was before weighing/checking....someone has to notice/believe a disc is not legal and report it. Then it needs to be checked (again). So why have the initial weigh-in/check if someone can just swap out a 'checked' disc for an 'unchecked' one? And don't say the TD/checker can place a mark on the disc.....player's won't agree to that - heck soon the disc would be covered in marks. Can't go by color or stamp....too easy to get matching discs with different weights, etc. An example is the Gateway Ninja.....if you see a Gateway Ninja being thrown.....is it legal or illegal? One version of the Gateway Ninja is PDGA legal, but the previous version is illegal. True, measuring it would tell which it is, but then the player could swap out the legal Ninja for an illegal one and I'm not sure anyone could tell the difference.

These are all great points. So why DO we have these standards if they are so difficult to enforce if we theoretically tried?

The big end all solution is never sell over max weight, never leaves the cooling table, some companies might be running automated systems that could weigh them before they even make it to the cooling stage.

 

[F.Luke]

I'm not going to doxx my friend but I can answer everything available from the transcript that won't identify him.

I assume you are referring to an incident that occurred at Polliwog Park in Manhattan Beach California in 2015. If that is the case the settlement came from the municipality and not Innova. If you are referring to another incident please enlighten me.

*edit* The injury occurred in 2012. The settlement came in 2015.

 

[ru4por]

Hmm...jacked up the reply. I will try again.

 

[ru4por]

2-3 hours, the prospect of being dnf'd for skirting the rules.

You expect every club, throwing a C Tier and above, to get the park at 5 am for tech inspection and expect 288 players to arrive around 6 am? Perhaps your club and tournament experience is different than mine. We don't have an army of volunteers looking to put in a 16 hour day, instead of a 12 hour day. Nor do we have a player population, looking to significantly extend the time frame of a tournament. We have spent years, searching for minutes to shave off tournaments, to get players home more quickly....a request we have universally received as a suggestion for tournament play. Illegal disc use is not a rampant problem in disc golf and your solution is logistically impossible.

Man, the limits on the editing ability on the forum are very frustrating. Obviously, the above is my reply, not SB's.

 

[Sewer bill]

I assume you are referring to an incident that occurred at Polliwog Park in Manhattan Beach California in 2015. If that is the case the settlement came from the municipality and not Innova. If you are referring to another incident please enlighten me.

*edit* The injury occurred in 2012. The settlement came in 2015.

Nope it occurred in Massachusetts in 2010 and didn't go to court until 2014. Champion was granted summary judgement and it went to jury. Also I was incorrect it wasn't a destroyer it was a boss. The person who was hit ended up losing their eye.