threevok
Double Eagle Member
There's a song in there somewhere. Thanks.
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What won't Gateway Stamp
- Thread starter Horsman
- Start date
There's a song in there somewhere. Thanks.
That's fair, maybe "open source" isn't really the correct term for what I'm trying to say. Just the general development that some folks don't follow the old paradigm of being as rigidly defensive of IP as legally possible...that's what I was attempting to express.
Obviously it's a case-by-case issue, and I def don't know all of Gateway's stamps or who the original/contributing artists are or what permissions are/aren't in place. I'm not going to bent out of shape about use of IP unless I'm aware of a specific artist that feels they're being ripped off.
lyleoross
* Ace Member *
I didn't read every post here, but I'm reasonably confident that no one is using IP that isn't open use and making "real" money on it. The multinationals take their stuff very seriously, but only if they think it represents a true financial threat. Their responses vary, as I understand it. Disney seems to be an ogre about the whole thing, but I don't know how far down the food chain they go. The reason that Calvin is everywhere is simply that the guys with the copyright don't go after them. Everything I read is basically, is it worth their time? I've heard of cases where the people who are infringing write the company, and often enough get a cease and desist letter, but nothing with teeth. On the other hand, I've heard of horror stories of multinationals bankrupting individual infringements. I suspect the truth is more along the lines of people dependent. If the guy at the multinational hears about it, and forgot his coffee for the day, you're in trouble.
To Gateway, if they put an image on a disc, and charged significantly, or even moderately, more for the disc, my understanding is that they'd be in trouble. That is, the imagery isn't adding to the underlying value of the disc. The disc isn't really considered art, I know, some do, but in the rest of the world, it isn't. That means that Gateway hasn't taken an image and turned it into profit. As I understand it, that puts them below the radar, so to speak.
To Gateway, if they put an image on a disc, and charged significantly, or even moderately, more for the disc, my understanding is that they'd be in trouble. That is, the imagery isn't adding to the underlying value of the disc. The disc isn't really considered art, I know, some do, but in the rest of the world, it isn't. That means that Gateway hasn't taken an image and turned it into profit. As I understand it, that puts them below the radar, so to speak.
ZAMson
^Has PhD in Disc-Artistry
Sweet I'm gonna use this "under the radar" card to do some cheating at league. And these kids walk past my house every day, I bet I could EASILY sell them drugs under the radar. Honestly there's just so much fun stuff to do under the radar, and that's a lot cooler target than right or wrong. I won't tell y'all all my criminal ideas cuz after all I'm trying to stay under the radar with my scummy activity. Why my parents, teachers, and every responsible adult I've ever met was so hung up on right vs wrong when all you have to worry about is the radar, I'll never know.
So #undertheradar is the opposing movement to #growthesport?
Hampstead
* Ace Member *
Agricolae
Eagle Member
Ok. I'd bet you'd get a bit more bent out of shape if you were an independent artist/developer trying to make a living from your creations.
^^Yep. Welcome to the New Model. :|
Interesting tactic: put a person with whom you disagree in a hypothetical situation, then assume their reaction. I love it.
Who knows, maybe your assumption is correct. Or, maybe I'd appreciate the exposure, or maybe I'd feel some pride/validation that my work got noticed and adapted by others.
Either way it's a hypothetical...just like these criticisms of IP infringement. If I was aware of one solid example of an artist who felt like they'd been slighted, I might feel differently about this topic. So far I haven't seen that. I've only seen grandstanding and white-knightery on behalf of content creators whose opinions remain unknown.
ZAMson
^Has PhD in Disc-Artistry
I've got a studio art degree and have made my living for the last 10 years in disc golf with creative original ideas. I've had over 200 of those original ideas turned into stamps. 3 different parent companies have put me on staff so that the original ideas that spill out of my head on a daily basis can be their property and grow their businesses. I've never filled out a job application, I've been recruited based on my original ideas. You can buy my original ideas all over the place, you might have already. Millennium, DGA, MVP, and Axiom have my original ideas on the shelves right now. In the last 10 years I've made less than a thousand dollars outside of disc golf, and I haven't had any other jobs besides my disc golf original ideas gigs. People thought my original ideas for design were so good that they trained me to develop websites, and I developed sites and display features and original disc flight algorithms. I invented and sold the IP for MVP's flight charts, which have now been copied by other companies. People run wholesale orders of my old stamps from places I'm no longer with, because my original ideas are profitable products. While my wife was in college I supported us both with my original ideas. Creativity and original ideas are how I stay alive in every sense of the word -- all my money comes from original ideas, and my hobby of creating original music is very important for keeping me in a creative mindset 24/7.
Now I'm not a disc maker, and I understand that Gateway's thing is making discs, and whatever artwork helps sell it is acceptable to them. But please understand that I think it's scummy as f-ck, that it's theft, it's slimy, it's the most illegitimate thing going on in disc golf today, and I have no respect for Gateway and Fringe offshoots who choose to steal property that *someone* out there created for their livelihood.
Either have an original idea, or pay the person who did, or get called out for the slimy f-cking thieves they are.
Damn brah. That totally goes against this new 'open source' creativity (theft) movement that is becoming the new norm.
You should just be happy and flattered that you are getting the exposure. LOLOLOLOL.
Hampstead
* Ace Member *
Nice rant! I'm inspired to go buy some Gateway now. Thanks!
That's awesome that you've made a career in that way, and I definitely appreciate your desire [and need] to defend your IP.
--But--
Are there any specific designers that you know (or know of) who have been victim to IP infringement? (Have you?) Or is this just a general criticism without any examples. It still sounds to me like you're speaking on behalf of other designers who may not want or need the representation.
This is far from my area of expertise, so let me know if there's some understanding in your industry that I'm on the wrong side of. I'm willing to give Gateway the benefit of the doubt unless given specific examples to the contrary.
ZAMson
^Has PhD in Disc-Artistry
I've got an appreciation for their original ideas and creations... got a Wizard stash for 8 lifetimes. But I've also been turning down any design gigs that might run through Gateway because of their theft practices.
I'm worried that my viewpoint is being misinterpreted by some on this forum. From the beginning I've said that the creator should be in charge of their own IP and how it's used.
Major Tomahawk
Eagle Member
Art work isn't the only thing that Gateway has stolen.
Lets get back to ideas that you guys think that they would say no to stamping.
Like do you think they would stamp just the "F" word as big as possible.
Like do you think they would stamp just the "F" word as big as possible.
ZAMson
^Has PhD in Disc-Artistry
Oh hell yeah I've been ripped off and stolen from, exploited, not paid for work, etc. Do you own something? Would you mind if I stole it? Say you were having a yard sale of your property, and something has a price tag on it because you intend to sell it (this is licensed art & logos in the analogy)... do you mind when someone sees it, likes it, and decides the price is $0 because they want it? AND THEN they stand there and sell it to someone as their own property?
I have a specific IP/licensing example on Gateway but I won't name the property. Basically, a famous group sells their likeness as a licensed property. Someone I know has paid a LOT of money for that license, and they now own the exclusive rights to produce that group's image on discs. It'll be awesome! But they paid a lot for that right, and it's a major part of their production cost. On the other hand, Gateway has already run an unlicensed version of this product without paying anything for the property. Under the radar, lololol. The end result is that the legitimate licensed product has a much lower chance of making it to market at a competitive price. Sure they could sue Gateway over it, but that's even more cost.
I disliked Dynamic for a long time because of how much unlicensed copyrighted material they reproduced. But now they've paid up for the Marvel license and are creating awesome discs that reach beyond the DG market and will get kids interested in DG. That's fantastic. I'd love to see some Star Wars discs too -- but there's Gateway stealing it for free. I think it's detrimental to the growth of disc golf to support thievery like that.
ZAMson
^Has PhD in Disc-Artistry
Dora the Explora showing kids how to make meth with household materials in comic sans. Free original idea right there.
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