Sudden Death Options

[Anon]

Should just settle ties with a 1v1 GUTS game.

 

[ru4por]

Every hole on the face of the earth is biased in some fashion or another- some are just more biased than others. I have not seen the video but from Chuck's post it sounds like a right handed player won it throwing a forehand- throwing forehand is a legitimate disc golf skill which it sounds like the other player did not possess. I doubt the runner up was ever mandated to not throw any forehands in his practice sessions. If a hole is good enough to be on the course for the competition to begin with then it is good enough to settle a playoff.

Sudden death playoffs are the ultimate drama. Any gain in "fairness" made by neutering them in some way is more than made up for in loss of entertainment value/drama.

Hole 1 on Toboggan can easily be reached RHBH. My noodle/low rated arm can, and has, parked it. Not to trivialize Chuck's point.

I agree that all holes, to some degree, have a built in bias. I also agree that any bias has already come into play three times, but over the course of a tournament (vs. sudden death) those bias balance out between different styles and play.

Seems kind of like a 400ft CTP to me. I can't reach it, but many can.

 

[jrawk]

Every hole on the face of the earth is biased in some fashion or another- some are just more biased than others. I have not seen the video but from Chuck's post it sounds like a right handed player won it throwing a forehand- throwing forehand is a legitimate disc golf skill which it sounds like the other player did not possess. I doubt the runner up was ever mandated to not throw any forehands in his practice sessions. If a hole is good enough to be on the course for the competition to begin with then it is good enough to settle a playoff.

Sudden death playoffs are the ultimate drama. Any gain in "fairness" made by neutering them in some way is more than made up for in loss of entertainment value/drama.

This.


There would be no controversy if this was a dog leg left and one of the players was left handed.

 

[DavidSauls]

Separate from hole balance, or maybe it's having multiple route options versus a primary route, there's the question of why a playoff is needed at all, reducing flukiness of a single hole and speed of completion. Basically what's almost as good as a coin flip that involves actual throwing?

A putting contest, of some sort.

 

[bwgort]

Sudden death where one can win after one hole is common, but is it the best, fairest and way to break ties? Should they even be broken for first place in lower tier events? When a course is designed, the first hole isn't always balanced which likely favors a specific skill. A great example was the Am Nats this past weekend. Anyone who's played hole 1 at Toboggan would recognize its bias toward lefties and righty forehands which in fact the sudden death winner possessed.

If the first hole is not balanced, I would submit that simply giving tied players 2 throws on an open basket for CTP would be more fair and actually faster than sudden death. Another possibility to defend unbalanced first holes might be requiring at least two holes to be played. If either player is ahead by 1 throw after two holes, they win. If tied at that point, they continue like current sudden death.

Some ball golf events require a 3 hole minimum or at one time an 18 hole playoff. That's probably extreme for disc golf below major level. But a 3-hole minimum might be preferable to reduce fluke results like cut-thrus and minimize hole design imbalance.

Interesting topic Chuck. Are there any requirements that the playoff be played on the course that was used during the tournament? (Ie is there any current rule that prevents the CTP playoff that you mentioned?)

 

[JC17393]

Interesting topic Chuck. Are there any requirements that the playoff be played on the course that was used during the tournament? (Ie is there any current rule that prevents the CTP playoff that you mentioned?)

The rules specify sudden death, so a CTP is not an option.

The rules do not specify if the hole(s) must be part of the course(s) used in the tournament, only that the playoff begins on hole one unless otherwise designated by the TD.

The quandary in the present rule, IMO, is if the playoff holes are left undetermined prior to the tournament, the default by rule is starting on hole one but hole one on which course if multiple have been used? The most recently played by the players involved? What if one course was played but multiple layouts were used during the weekend (long tees, short tees, multiple baskets per hole, etc)?

Lends credence to the notion that having any default at all is unnecessary, and it should be left entirely up to the TD to decide, in advance or not.

1.9 Tie Breakers
B. Final ties for first place in any division or for the reduction of field size must be broken by sudden death play. Sudden death play shall begin with hole number one unless a different hole or series of holes is designated by the Tournament Director prior to the start of the tournament.​

 

[Cgkdisc]

A putting contest, of some sort.

Why not? The thing is, ties do not have to be broken for places below first. But if there are trophies or plaques involved, the players can optionally break the ties for hardware (not cash or prizes) by any manner they wish. Lately, there are one round events with flex starts where the PDGA has now allowed TDs to not break first place ties because the tied players are not always at the course at the end of the round.

 

[flexin]

Separate from hole balance, or maybe it's having multiple route options versus a primary route, there's the question of why a playoff is needed at all, reducing flukiness of a single hole and speed of completion. Basically what's almost as good as a coin flip that involves actual throwing?

Flukiness? If you scored well enough to make it into the playoff, the win isn't a fluke. Sure luck can factor in more in less holes, but it is still completely fair. I do agree with the people that say to leave hole 1 as default out of the rules. Tds should have to put some thought into it. Anyone saying to let the players debate where to start is insane.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Flukiness? If you scored well enough to make it into the playoff, the win isn't a fluke. Sure luck can factor in more in less holes, but it is still completely fair. I do agree with the people that say to leave hole 1 as default out of the rules. Tds should have to put some thought into it. Anyone saying to let the players debate where to start is insane.

The flukiness in our game may even out enough over many holes but not just a single hole where uncontrollable elements like a spit, wind gust or roll away might randomly strike at any time. That's partly why many other sports have more extensive tiebreakers than just a single point.

 

[ERicJ]

I would not be opposed to allowing ties to stand at TD discretion announced prior to start of the event. There's so much other activity at the end of an event that compounding that with playoffs could be alleviated.

Allowing players to [try to] chose their own playoff holes would be chaos.

Removing the default hole #1 start and expecting most TDs to remember to specify a playoff loop is probably unrealistic as well.

Extending the playoff beyond potentially a single sudden death hole would be the most fair way to settle ties. Especially since, by rule now, the same player always tees off first on every playoff hole; that's an advantage to subsequent players.

 

[flexin]

The flukiness in our game may even out enough over many holes but not just a single hole where uncontrollable elements like a spit, wind gust or roll away might randomly strike at any time. That's partly why many other sports have more extensive tiebreakers than just a single point.

Baseball is sudden death and one team could have best batters and other team worst in the first extra inning. Football the coin toss drastically favors one team. Basketball shortened overtime period where a couple lucky shots can make the difference. In any tiebreaker the pressure to perform immediately is there and you probably will be hoping for some luck. Win in regulation and you can avoid this. Ctp and putting would be dumb and luck and flukiness are still a factor. Can you imagine if ball golf did that? You could make it a mandatory 2 or 3 holes which would be OK with me, but if 1 hole favors a certain style and the other hole is fair the flukiness argument is the same. The playoff isn't and can't be 100% even, it's to decide a winner which is 100% fair.

 

[hellbound]

I like the idea of a three hole play off. Its fare and should be somewhat balanced. Being left handed if you went with a right handed favered three holes. I would bet that a lefty still would be able to get one out of three. If it becomes a case of fading light have it set to single hole followed by ctp on a td based neutral hole. ie practice basket 200+ feet out.

Most td's will pick a starting hole (If its a long walk from one) and say play xyz until a winner is deemed.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Baseball is sudden death and one team could have best batters and other team worst in the first extra inning. Football the coin toss drastically favors one team. Basketball shortened overtime period where a couple lucky shots can make the difference. In any tiebreaker the pressure to perform immediately is there and you probably will be hoping for some luck. Win in regulation and you can avoid this. Ctp and putting would be dumb and luck and flukiness are still a factor. Can you imagine if ball golf did that? You could make it a mandatory 2 or 3 holes which would be OK with me, but if 1 hole favors a certain style and the other hole is fair the flukiness argument is the same. The playoff isn't and can't be 100% even, it's to decide a winner which is 100% fair.

The problem is you're giving examples of tiebreakers that aren't necessarily good and some are there due to tradition not necessarily fairness. At the pro level in sports with spectators, the bias can be more toward entertainment and dramatic value, sometimes with at least the perception of fairness whether warranted or not. The name "Sudden Death" in and of itself invokes drama.

You're making a blanket statement that putting and CTPs are "dumb" which is only your opinion not supported by valid reasons. Why are these options "dumb"? Ball golf dropped back from the theoretically more fair 18 holes down to 3 and usually just sudden death more due to time constraints, drama and entertainment value so the audience didn't have to come back the next day or concentrate too long.

 

[flexin]

The problem is you're giving examples of tiebreakers that aren't necessarily good and some are there due to tradition not necessarily fairness. At the pro level in sports with spectators, the bias can be more toward entertainment and dramatic value, sometimes with at least the perception of fairness whether warranted or not. The name "Sudden Death" in and of itself invokes drama.

You're making a blanket statement that putting and CTPs are "dumb" which is only your opinion not supported by valid reasons. Why are these options "dumb"? Ball golf dropped back from the theoretically more fair 18 holes down to 3 and usually just sudden death more due to time constraints, drama and entertainment value so the audience didn't have to come back the next day or concentrate too long.

Regulation is fair, tiebreaker is to separate the two even performances and crown a winner. Ctp is dumb because the object of the game is to make the disc in the basket, why would a tiebreaker that is not even the same object and still susceptible to wind gusts, bad rolls, unfairness make the sport better?

 

[DavidSauls]

We're talking different types of fairness here. One is whether the tie-breaker is a suitable measure of skill to determine a winner, and not too dependent on luck; the other is whether it gives the competitors reasonably equal opportunities.

I think the second is important. As to the first, I don't know how important it is for the vast majority of events and divisions. We want a winner---nobody's happy with a tie---and we want more skill involved than a coin flip. But at your weekly C-tier, it's not a huge deal. A more extensive test like a 3-hole minimum might be appropriate for majors, or perhaps just Worlds, where there's a lasting title at stake.

 

[Cgkdisc]

We're talking different types of fairness here. One is whether the tie-breaker is a suitable measure of skill to determine a winner, and not too dependent on luck; the other is whether it gives the competitors reasonably equal opportunities.

I think the second is important. As to the first, I don't know how important it is for the vast majority of events and divisions. We want a winner---nobody's happy with a tie---and we want more skill involved than a coin flip. But at your weekly C-tier, it's not a huge deal. A more extensive test like a 3-hole minimum might be appropriate for majors, or perhaps just Worlds, where there's a lasting title at stake.

From my experience, most players are happy to split first & second prize and just play the tiebreaker for the trophy. I've been involved in quite a few personally and as TD over 25 years. And with few exceptions, we/they agreed to some form of split before playing the tiebreak. Even with the tiebreak, their ratings will be the same since tiebreak holes don't count. Note: TDs are still supposed to report the posted payouts to the tiebreak players and let them do the split off the official tournament report.

 

[DavidSauls]

Really? The prize isn't that big a deal to me, but the honor is. I'm not walking away with a tie, not even in a casual round with no prizes, if I can possibly help it.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Really? The prize isn't that big a deal to me, but the honor is. I'm not walking away with a tie, not even in a casual round with no prizes, if I can possibly help it.

Like I said, it's my experience which may not be general. Probably a difference in perspective between pros versus ams also. But even in casual skins or side games, we usually don't resolve ties or if skins remain by the end of the round, they are just not resolved with tiebreaks.

 

[DavidSauls]

Last summer, I played a tournament that featured 3 full rounds, then a final 9 for most divisions---but, gratefully, not my particular geezer division (Advanced grandmasters). So what happens? I tie for first, and it takes us 7 holes of sudden death for me to finally lose it. And, on this particular course, hole 7 is at the furthest reaches of the property, so I had to trek a mile back.

We might as well have played a Final 9.

At no point did either of us consider yielding. We could have split the prizes---being merchandise, it wouldn't have mattered a great deal---and the only trophy was a handshake. I think the poor moderator who was walking with us to officiate suggested it, more than once.

However, I would have settled for a reachable CTP, or a putting contest, to settle the matter with less walking, and no hills.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Separate from deciding a starting hole, TDs should also consider specifying that players repeat a loop of 3 or 4 holes if ties are not resolved after 3 or 4 holes.