Harder Courses for worlds?

[HarkeyPuck]

Well, first of all, I don't want a situation like where the USGA screws up the U.S. Open (ball) Golf tournament as badly as they've done a few times.

I also am not trying to make courses impossibly tough for casual players. I fully agree that taking the family of four with pre-teen children to Morane and playing from the pro tees is not in the best interest of disc golf. But I'm also not suggesting that.

Here's another example: some years ago, golf ball golf courses being used by the PGA Tour were yielding scores of -22, and that garnered some serious talk. Courses were lengthened, some redesigned, some dropped from the schedule. Many courses had black tees or the pros, and everyone else played from the blues. And some courses like Bethpage Black just have a sign saying "this course is for expert players and is not recommended for casual golfers" and such.

Bottom line... new courses can be created to test these pros. Some current courses can be made tougher with new teeboxes farther back, plant some trees in the right places, and so on. And some courses simply should not be used for the MPO Worlds again.

I think this can be done with some thought and planning. No, I don't want to destroy the fun for the casual golfer... but likewise, it doesn't look good to have -16 in 18 holes, and -90 (give or take) for a tournament, either. JMHO, of course.

Well keep the tourney to 4 rounds and -90 won't happen. But yes I get your point. Technology and athletes advanced a little faster than the courses for sure. But it's more about LONG putts being made IMO. These guys aren't parking every hole (I did not see today's round) they are hitting 50 footers.

 

[SD86]

All good points and not necessarily exclusive.
I'm more interested in scoring separation than actual scores. When 3/4 of the pro field are deucing a hole, that should be a red flag to someone.

Agree. I think we're saying close to the same things, here.

I don't know, I think it's different than ball golf. It's easy to go for a putt in ball golf and only end up a foot or two away from the hole each time, which is a gimme. But there's no consistent way to do the same in disc golf. So although the putting is harder in ball golf, it's easier to make your second shot than it is in disc golf.

The courses need to be less open and have more shot shaping requirements and instead of relying on OB to punish players on stray shots, make a course that has punishing rough.

Good points. Golf ball golf sets par allowing for two putts. Disc golf can't really do that, it usually sets par by total distance, allowing for doglegs, etc.

You bring up a good point, too: How often do I see it when a pro player goes OB, but still doesn't make bogey? And I'm not just talking the very top pros. I was watching the Matt Dollar videos (very good, he does a great job, check them out), and players go OB and they still are getting par... even if players not in OB are getting pars.

 

[SD86]

But it's more about LONG putts being made IMO. These guys aren't parking every hole (I did not see today's round) they are hitting 50 footers.

Good point and very true. I doubt we'll ever reach the ideal I've discussed here, but some good points have been raised and IMHO some things could be done going forward. Tucking some more discs into little pockets, like at the Vibram Open, is one good thing... they're doing more of that at a park near me...

 

[Vonbeezy1]

Maybe, just maybe the pars are too high?

Convert everything to par 3. Problem solved lol

 

[lyleoross]

Agree. I think we're saying close to the same things, here.



Good points. Golf ball golf sets par allowing for two putts. Disc golf can't really do that, it usually sets par by total distance, allowing for doglegs, etc.

You bring up a good point, too: How often do I see it when a pro player goes OB, but still doesn't make bogey? And I'm not just talking the very top pros. I was watching the Matt Dollar videos (very good, he does a great job, check them out), and players go OB and they still are getting par... even if players not in OB are getting pars.

That's because they are essentially making an island hole with OB lines. If you're long you come back to the 10 meter circle. A DZ that is 60 feet away would solve the problem. Not advocating just saying those holes are feable. The De La model works better. There's no OB, just a mammoth drop off so if your'e long, you're hosed.

 

[DavidSauls]

Bottom line... new courses can be created to test these pros. Some current courses can be made tougher with new teeboxes farther back, plant some trees in the right places, and so on. And some courses simply should not be used for the MPO Worlds again.

I think this can be done with some thought and planning.... .

.....and time and effort and money.

 

[jjtwinnova]

Last year before worlds, a certain top pro, not namimg names, called out saying that Moraine was too tight and not good for Worlds. Mcbeth still shot 15 under. You can't please every single person. If people are playing pro disc golf now, they will play again.

 

[HarkeyPuck]

McBeth threw OVER the trees on #6 @ Moraine. A 600ft shot, OVER the trees.

 

[jjtwinnova]

McBeth threw OVER the trees on #6 @ Moraine. A 600ft shot, OVER the trees.

I was there! Had to pick my jaw up off the ground after that. Still took a 5 though...

 

[Pbmercil]

I understand what you're asking and saying. To clarify my point: I think I want to see these guys tested more, fairly but more strongly, especially in the World Championships. I want to see them challenged.

No, I don't think you do understand what I'm saying. Because you keep saying that a course McBeth can shoot -16 isn't challenging enough, which I don't agree with. Because there are 158 other players in that event who COULDN'T shoot that well, who I'm sure would testify as to just how hard it is to play to that level. Just because he put up a super low number doesn't mean it was easy to do, which is what you are saying when you say that -16 isn't enough of a test.

 

[lyleoross]

Ball golf has par two courses, they're called pitch and putt courses and they're for practice only. Like it or not, that model sets a perception that any hole you can shoot two on is just a practice hole. We may view our birdy shooting studs as awesome, but outsiders will assume it's because the course is feable. Knowing better on our part won't make any difference. Of course if we don't give a darn what the rest of 'em think, it doesn't matter. If we ever want a TV audience or the Olympics, it does.

We should consider a view change in my opinion. Our studs shooting 15 down on courses that are pars for the rest of us doesn't mean they are animals killing a good course, it means the rest of us aren't that good and the course is weak relative to the skill of the top guys. Ball golf is the same. The difference is they have 25 million golfers and we have, maybe 500,000. For our top 100, they have 5000. For our RW and PM, they have 100 players. That means they can accommodate those top guys and they are held distinctly apart from the casual player, even the good casual player. The two pools don't even get compared, but that's what we're doing, comparing how our top guys are to other players.

 

[Pbmercil]

We should consider a view change in my opinion. Our studs shooting 15 down on courses that are pars for the rest of us doesn't mean they are animals killing a good course, it means the rest of us aren't that good and the course is weak relative to the skill of the top guys. Ball golf is the same. The difference is they have 25 million golfers and we have, maybe 500,000. For our top 100, they have 5000. For our RW and PM, they have 100 players. That means they can accommodate those top guys and they are held distinctly apart from the casual player, even the good casual player. The two pools don't even get compared, but that's what we're doing, comparing how our top guys are to other players.

Word. I agree. The question is how can we accommodate the PMs and RW's in a sport in a way that is feasible givie the lack of revenue in disc golf over all? That's a very tough question.

 

[lyleoross]

No, I don't think you do understand what I'm saying. Because you keep saying that a course McBeth can shoot -16 isn't challenging enough, which I don't agree with. Because there are 158 other players in that event who COULDN'T shoot that well, who I'm sure would testify as to just how hard it is to play to that level. Just because he put up a super low number doesn't mean it was easy to do, which is what you are saying when you say that -16 isn't enough of a test.

Do you think if you translated this to the PGA that any of those 158 players would be playing a major? The question for me is do you accommodate the guys at the top or the larger pool? Of course in 20 years the point may be moot.

 

[lyleoross]

Word. I agree. The question is how can we accommodate the PMs and RW's in a sport in a way that is feasible givie the lack of revenue in disc golf over all? That's a very tough question.

You're too darned smart. I can't answer that or I would have.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Ultimately, they need to be playing a different game format (course type, equipment, rules) that is discovered to be compelling enough to pay to watch. Or becoming a pro will never be a sustainable option for more than a few years.

 

[demon102]

I have to say that a lot of videos that I see of pros doing their thing are on holes that are a lot easier then the places I play regularly. I'm kinda amazed how easy some of the shots I see are, just basic beginner type of holes. They crush them impressively but it's nothing hard on average. Meanwhile I play in DE with the east coast trees and it's like having NBA players just smacking every shot you throw at that basket lol. Apparently we have one of the hardest courses in the states with Iron Hill, it's the type of place that you're just smacking trees all day on a bad day and your ready to chuck your favorite driver in the rough. LOL on a good day you feel like a god.

 

[scarpfish]

Because looking at it from an outsider's perspective (potential sponsors, investors and viewers), it makes our little sport look really easy.

When the top guys shoot 15 under on 18 holes or get 8,9, 10 birdies in a row, it doesn't help our image.

I can assure you that to these so called outsiders, such a forensic examination of the nuances of our sport wouldn't even cross their minds because outsiders don't think about things they aren't involved in that specifically.

You know who does worry about that sort of thing? Insiders with an inferiority complex who will never be happy with disc golf as is, no matter how many improvements are made, because they're hell-bent on turning it into another homogenized product for their comforts, and not an activity for people to enjoy, even if that future involves greens fees, dress codes, and being relegated to spectating athlete worshippers buying the man's corporate clothes, and drinking the man's corporate beer, because that's what the man wants them to do.

So on behalf of all of us who want to keep disc golf (even the competitive kind), a weird aberration from our monotonous lives, and a relatively affordable pasttime, could you all just quit this sanctimonious concern about what people you made up in your heads think about us already?

 

[Pbmercil]

I can assure you that to these so called outsiders, such a forensic examination of the nuances of our sport wouldn't even cross their minds because outsiders don't think about things they aren't involved in that specifically.

You know who does worry about that sort of thing? Insiders with an inferiority complex who will never be happy with disc golf as is, no matter how many improvements are made...

THANK YOU. I wanted to say something along those lines when he posted that but I couldn't think of a good way to articulate my thoughts.

 

[Three Putt]

Ball golf has par two courses, they're called pitch and putt courses and they're for practice only. Like it or not, that model sets a perception that any hole you can shoot two on is just a practice hole. We may view our birdy shooting studs as awesome, but outsiders will assume it's because the course is feable. Knowing better on our part won't make any difference.

It's the either/or thing, though. The -15 is too far under par compared to what ball golfers shoot, so the course is too easy. OR you have par 2's which look like practice holes compared to ball golf, so the course is too easy.

Basically disc golf is too easy once you get to those top levels. Those guys can bomb drives and drain long putts. It ends up taking a special piece of property to keep those guys close enough to par to make the scores compare to what someone is expecting to see coming over from ball golf. Probably the only way to do it regularly (as has already been said for years) is to make the target harder to putt at. With all the courses already in the ground, changing the target for them would be unrealistic. You would end up with a sport where the game the Pros play would be fundamentally different since they would throw at a target no one else does. That's not a great answer, either.

So you have a problem with no great fix. I always end up back to "so what's so bad about -15?" We are not ball golf. We would probably screw something up if we tried to be, anyway. Top disc golf pros tear up disc golf courses. It is what it is.

 

[Pbmercil]

It's the either/or thing, though. The -15 is too far under par compared to what ball golfers shoot, so the course is too easy. OR you have par 2's which look like practice holes compared to ball golf, so the course is too easy.

Basically disc golf is too easy once you get to those top levels. Those guys can bomb drives and drain long putts. It ends up taking a special piece of property to keep those guys close enough to par to make the scores compare to what someone is expecting to see coming over from ball golf. Probably the only way to do it regularly (as has already been said for years) is to make the target harder to putt at. With all the courses already in the ground, changing the target for them would be unrealistic. You would end up with a sport where the game the Pros play would be fundamentally different since they would throw at a target no one else does. That's not a great answer, either.

So you have a problem with no great fix. I always end up back to "so what's so bad about -15?" We are not ball golf. We would probably screw something up if we tried to be, anyway. Top disc golf pros tear up disc golf courses. It is what it is.

yup. Why exactly are our scores supposed to mimic ball golf? Why is it a problem if they don't? I hate to break it to you guys, but disc golf IS EASIER. That is ok.

Now, that doesn't mean I like courses like say, Fountain Hills, or other relatively open bombers where missing your line by 5 feet or more can still get you an inside the circle putt. But there are plently of very hard courses that get used in these events (the examples from last years worlds are good) and still get shredded pretty handily.