Val drops Innova?

[SonicGuy]

Btw. businesses are not thought to make money. They are meant to fulfill our needs. Be that food, transportation, entertainment... Everything more is just plain greed. Also if you have a business that can make a lot of money from one product, it is more than normal to use that money to promote another one or start another business or donate it to education/arts/culture. If Innova failed to use the money they made with their products promote and fulfill the needs of their players Val made the perfectly correct decision: Leaving a bad business.

I thought you died Fidel?

 

[Finny]

Factual opinion of a sponsored player, factual opinion of a touring pro, factual opinion of a sponsored touring pro......which as it turns out, is the topic. I dare say, I carries more weight than speculative opinion. Of course, if you are a sponsored touring pro, the stones you cast would also carry weight. But, I cannot imagine why you took it to a personal level.

I was trying to point out that the phrase "factual opinions" doesn't make sense.

 

[Hampstead]

Are you even reading the thread?

Unfortunately, yes.

 

[KissDaRing]

But I am.

If the women's side grows 10 times as fast as the men's side, the men's side will still produce more new customers.

If a particular company invests (puts its money) into that women's-side growth, they may not reap great rewards---only a portion of those new customers will be new customers for that particular company.

Anyway, it's a gamble, and Innova's money. It's fine for us to say Innova should invest (spend money) on women, and invest in youth programs, and invest in the pro tour, and invest in television, and invest in all sorts of things that might get them a return on investment. Or might not. Innova invests where they see a return, and puts a lot of money and effort into efforts where they see it as more of a give-back than an investment, but it's their money so they get to choose. I can't fault them for their choice.

This is how I feel exactly. They are running a for profit business. This is capitalism. Pushing for Val to be supported more financially or in any other way just because she is female is a social issue. I think that Innova would be eager to push the women more if the market was there. Is it their job or responsibility to develop that market in the name of equality? Absolutely not.
Let's talk about Peter Shive. The man has 13 or 14 world championships. Look at his age demographic. Huge population of retirees. Is it also the responsibility of Innova to give Peter Shive more money because of his dominance? Absolutely not. Why? Because he wouldn't bring a return on investment. ( I actually think Shive retired this year or at least I heard he did).
I am not hating on women but I am really tired of hearing that women aren't treated equally.

 

[Aim For The Chains]

MN: the state of multiple world championship*basketball titles.








*WNBA and aint nobody give a ****.

The women dgera should start selling their body space for advertising! Lets play guess the WNBA team!?

 

[Finny]

To be honest I wouldn't prevent them from playing FPO of they had their heart set on it, I would just discourage it. Disc golf is against the course, there is no danger of being injured by a more physically developed boy. The only danger is losing, which I know Millennials find to be extremely scary. If my girl was good enough to contribute on a team for a non contact sport like basketball and soccer I would absolutely encourage them to play on the "boys" team. But again there you have things like locker room social dynamics that make it tricky, which disc.golf does not have.

Sports can either be for camaraderie, competition, or recreation. Team sports require organization to play, it is hard to play baseball with a couple people. In most cases team sports require entry into some sort of competitive league even if you only want the recreation or camaraderie.

Disc golf is not like this. The only reason to do tournaments is competitive. People aren't really social, that is what leagues are for. It is a lot of waiting around, it would be much more fun recreationally to avoid tournaments. If competition is the single goal of disc golf tournaments I see no reason to handicap your performance by competing in a gender protected division.

The "play against the course" point is a good one. (I think basketball and soccer are contact sports, though.) I don't think it "handicaps performance" when a woman plays FPO, but I do know from talking to competitive women disc golfers that it sure gets boring playing with the same 3 people every tourney.

I don't think you meant to dodge this question, but I'm still curious: if FPO had just as many people in it as MPO, would that change you advice to your daughters?

 

[SonicGuy]

I don't think you meant to dodge this question, but I'm still curious: if FPO had just as many people in it as MPO, would that change you advice to your daughters?

It is not about the number of competitors, it is about the level of competition. If we stacked up the divisions based on score.needed to win, I would want my daughters to play the hardest division they would enjoy playing where enjoyment excluded winning as a factor.

 

[Mulligan]

I'll say it again... the local cultures across the nation play a big role in how DG is perceived by women.
Despite the fact that I was introduced to the sport by a former GF, and that my local culture is currently pretty decent at welcoming women, I have never seen a female playing a solo round in the wild (or even just a group of all women).
I have never seen a female working behind the counter at a disc golf shop... I think that plays a huge role.
I'm not even sure that I've ever seen another female IN a DG shop that wasn't there with me.

The thing that stands out to me the most in Val's statement is that she is putting the responsibility for "changing the landscape of women's disc golf" solely at the door of the manufacturers.
Maybe Innova wasn't doing enough based on her own viewpoints.... but the only female players I can name off the top of my head are BECAUSE they are Innova sponsored. (Hell, I'm pretty sure I didn't know a pro tour for men even really existed until I had played 5-10 years, and I'd say thats pretty common.)

But, as the Women's Committee Chair, I don't understand how she can't see that the role of promoting women in the sport rests with the PDGA.
She has a degree in business marketing... there is an open position for Exec Director of the PDGA at this moment.
There's the best option she has, if she really wants to make a dent.

 

[Steve West]

...I have never seen a female playing a solo round in the wild (or even just a group of all women).
I have never seen a female working behind the counter at a disc golf shop... I think that plays a huge role.
I'm not even sure that I've ever seen another female IN a DG shop that wasn't there with me. ..

Here in the future of DG (Minnesota) I've seen all these often enough we don't even comment on it anymore.

 

[Hampstead]

I'll say it again... the local cultures across the nation play a big role in how DG is perceived by women.
Despite the fact that I was introduced to the sport by a former GF, and that my local culture is currently pretty decent at welcoming women, I have never seen a female playing a solo round in the wild (or even just a group of all women).

There's a ladies only league that plays doubles an Tuesday nights in the spring and summer. They rotate courses each week, maybe a dozen or so women play, depending on the course. They are very welcoming to new players. If your gf is interested, they have a FB page where they list what course they're playing each week.

There are quite a few female players in Central Ohio, and I have witnessed several "in the wild" playing solo rounds.

 

[StevenSeagal]

I have heard Val interviewed many times and she has never failed to sound positive, charming, gracious, pleasant, genuine, sweet, funny, etc. She's also a decorated professional, maybe the most decorated professional ever.

I completely agree, Val is just plain awesome. To me she is proof positive that the community would be better off if more women played. I'm not even mad about her announcement because ultimately I agree with her that more needs to be done.

Reading between the lines its appears she's thankful for Innova's support over the years but was nonetheless discouraged by the fact that upper management wasn't willing to tackle the problem of growing the sport in the way she felt was most important to her as a woman. That to me is a completely fair point to make that a lot of people included Innova employees could accept without getting offended. The comment about being denied multiple honors really, REALLY overshadows what looks like a meaningful attempt to start a discussion.

 

[Aim For The Chains]

Here in the future of DG (Minnesota) I've seen all these often enough we don't even comment on it anymore.

True. I saw many this past year around town as well. For a few years now it seems like that has been the case vs rarely when i started playing.

 

[scarpfish]

I'll go out on a limb and say this, if females represented 50% or even 40% of the disc golf community and bought equipment in the same respect that men do, they'd get 50/50 treatment.

Advertisers are well aware that women are willing to fork over good money on things that they value. They are a major influencer in car sales for instance.

Where I think lies a problem is marketing the sport to women when were talking a sport where a great many of our courses lack an open restroom at least part of the year, and most gatherings of a competitive sense involve hordes of 20-60 year old men, who often outnumber them better than 10 to 1, drinking beer, and talking like 20-60 year old men often talk when amongst themselves. Some gals are chill with that, but most women I know do not find that atmosphere terribly appealing, especially when they're the only female there.

 

[jvphobic]

SmashBoxxTV has lined up Val for an interview on Tuesday night. Show starts at 9pm CST.
Http://www.youtube.com/user/smashboxxtv/live

 

[Mulligan]

There's a ladies only league that plays doubles an Tuesday nights in the spring and summer. They rotate courses each week, maybe a dozen or so women play, depending on the course. They are very welcoming to new players. If your gf is interested, they have a FB page where they list what course they're playing each week.

There are quite a few female players in Central Ohio, and I have witnessed several "in the wild" playing solo rounds.

Like I said, its better here then most places I've been.
There are some great female players on FB pages I'm involved in locally that are very active and get great support from the guys.
I have yet to personally see them out on the course solo, though I'm not saying it doesn't happen, lol.
When I do, I'll be sure to get a grainy photo (ala Bigfoot) and post it up here, lol!

But my GF is totally not interested in league/tourneys. She's been turned off by some of the bro-ish behavior we have run into on the course, including league play (dudes).

She really does like to play, but its more of a couples thing for her, plus the exercise.
Which, honestly, is another way that the sport ought to be marketed.

 

[Mulligan]

Where I think lies a problem is marketing the sport to women when were talking a sport where a great many of our courses lack an open restroom at least part of the year, and most gatherings of a competitive sense involve hordes of 20-60 year old men, who often outnumber them better than 10 to 1, drinking beer, and talking like 20-60 year old men often talk when amongst themselves. Some gals are chill with that, but most women I know do not find that atmosphere terribly appealing, especially when they're the only female there.

Totally agree with all of this, and the facilities issue is one I had not considered previously but def plays a role.

 

[the Duff]

Juliana (and I could be wrong) to the best of my recollection got signature discs when she moved from Discraft to Innova. I think she won the first three titles as a Discraft player.

You probably don't recall because her signature disc with Discraft used her maiden name: the Juliana Bower Stratus. It was Discraft's signature series. Ron Russell had the Comet and Cyclone, Scott Stokely had the XL. I believe these were the first "signature" discs Discraft ever had. Don't let the numbered one on eBay fool you, there were regular production runs along with numbered and signed ones.

 

[Darkgreen]

Tour Series Discs are chosen by the player. Val must have chose the TL
Nate picked the Firebird.

Idk the Starfire situation, there are plenty of reasons I could think of why the starfire but I don't know 100%


** I forgot making Team Star is what it takes for the Tour Series.

Thanks Paul. I really appreciate reading your insight on this topic. Glad to see you here and commenting.

 

[lyleoross]

You're not thinking from a business sense. The male side will continue to grow and prosper, the seeds have already been planted. As a profitable business already making money from the male side, you just keep doing what you've been doing. The female side of disc golf as far as business goes, is ripe for the taking. Even though we may not see alot of recent growth on the pro side, I think it's obvious the casual side of women's disc golf is growing fast and that will return a profit eventually for those willing to invest in it right now and build a brand women can relate to.

I would think if the women's side was growing substantially, Innova, of all companies, would recognize that and invest in it. From the start Innova has invested in events and players who they thought would grow their market. I don't see them not taking advantage of that if they could.

 

[Nova P]

I do know from talking to competitive women disc golfers that it sure gets boring playing with the same 3 people every tourney.

Or the same zero people in some places. :\