Why So Much OB?

[mike3216]

Okay, I'm a noob, and maybe there is a perfectly good reason, but I have to ask.

Why all this contrived OB ridiculousness? I was just watching the 2016 PDGA Pro Worlds Final round, and it seems the major way that the course planners manipulate course difficulty is by adding out of bounds real estate. Oh, jeez, I just threw my disc out into a large flat expanse of fairway, and it dribbled past a line of little white flags and now I've lost a shot. I might lose another if I hit the windmill's blades on the way to the Clown's mouth.
I get why they have to use OB to "tune" a repurposed traditional golf course, but since that is the case, why are they holding such a major championship here? There are plenty of beautiful, difficult, "natural" disc golf courses out there.
Traditional golf uses OB very sparingly, letting you play it where it lies, unless you hit a hazard. Why should disc golf be any different?

 

[cjman]

The PDGA received zero bids from parties interested in hosting Pro Worlds. That should tell you something about the state of Worlds.

 

[Twmccoy]

Prohibitive amounts of OB can definitely make you start hating the game in a hurry. Getting penalized for perfect shots that are OB because someone sets up arbitrary boundaries is stupid.

 

[Jenga54]

Okay, I'm a noob, and maybe there is a perfectly good reason, but I have to ask.

Why all this contrived OB ridiculousness? I was just watching the 2016 PDGA Pro Worlds Final round, and it seems the major way that the course planners manipulate course difficulty is by adding out of bounds real estate. Oh, jeez, I just threw my disc out into a large flat expanse of fairway, and it dribbled past a line of little white flags and now I've lost a shot. I might lose another if I hit the windmill's blades on the way to the Clown's mouth.
I get why they have to use OB to "tune" a repurposed traditional golf course, but since that is the case, why are they holding such a major championship here? There are plenty of beautiful, difficult, "natural" disc golf courses out there.
Traditional golf uses OB very sparingly, letting you play it where it lies, unless you hit a hazard. Why should disc golf be any different?

Welcome, and this is discussed a lot. The pros are very, very good compared to the rest of us just playing, as any sport. However - one big difference is that we don't really have any courses that are "just" for top elite level play.

All the courses they use for the top tourneys are used by regular players all year long. They'll lengthen out the tees and maybe change some pin placements. But since Disc Golf makes use of a straddle stance and the play surface doesn't matter, even a good smattering of trees doesn't do much for these guys. If your lie is bad, you just lean over and throw.

In order to create "scoring separation" they are still looking for ways to get these all year round courses to create tougher birdies. Even your "really good" courses out there will score really similarly for these guys and gals, which is boring to watch if everyone pars, everyone birdies, everyone birdies...

I just hope we get some very rich person to catch the disc golf bug and build a 2-3 million dollar facility, on a good chunk of land and have a few courses that are designed specifically for 1000+ rated players. No mortal would want to play them but they would be good for TV and hosting the biggest events. One day..

 

[XC_Eddy]

Because playing in the woods is hard to broadcast, and playing in the open is too easy without contrived added difficulty.

 

[DavidSauls]

If those contrived areas were water or road or pathways, or other pre-existing features that were incorporated in the course design, would it make a difference? Is it the contrived nature that bothers you, or the O.B. itself?

O.B. provides a different hazard than trees. It gives the player more freedom in choosing his flight path, but less freedom in where the disc lands and comes to rest. And it creates higher-risk hazards, because there's no chance of a great recovery shot saving the player from his bad throw.

It's not to everyone's taste, but that's why it's there. Particularly on top events, when there aren't enough sufficiently-challenging O.B.-free courses in places where people will host these events.

As for golf---we're not golf. We do a lot of things differently. We're free to pick and choose which aspects of golf we wish to adopt, and which don't suit us. If we fall in the trap of doing things just because that's how golf does them, we could just play....golf.

 

[mike3216]

The PDGA received zero bids from parties interested in hosting Pro Worlds. That should tell you something about the state of Worlds.

I didn't realize that. It make you wonder if disc golf is on the cusp of something bigger or just steady state.

 

[mike3216]

Welcome, and this is discussed a lot. The pros are very, very good compared to the rest of us just playing, as any sport. However - one big difference is that we don't really have any courses that are "just" for top elite level play.

All the courses they use for the top tourneys are used by regular players all year long. They'll lengthen out the tees and maybe change some pin placements. But since Disc Golf makes use of a straddle stance and the play surface doesn't matter, even a good smattering of trees doesn't do much for these guys. If your lie is bad, you just lean over and throw.

In order to create "scoring separation" they are still looking for ways to get these all year round courses to create tougher birdies. Even your "really good" courses out there will score really similarly for these guys and gals, which is boring to watch if everyone pars, everyone birdies, everyone birdies...

I just hope we get some very rich person to catch the disc golf bug and build a 2-3 million dollar facility, on a good chunk of land and have a few courses that are designed specifically for 1000+ rated players. No mortal would want to play them but they would be good for TV and hosting the biggest events. One day..

Good points. But there are traditional golf courses that host majors, and are playable for everyone. Thinking about it though, your comment about surfaces may point out the key difference. You can modulate rough depth and green characteristics in traditional golf.

 

[lyleoross]

I didn't realize that. It make you wonder if disc golf is on the cusp of something bigger or just steady state.

Just like in all things, disc golf has its angry voices.

It wasn't done the way I think it should have been, therefore it's bad.

Disc golf growth, sponsorship and viewership are all growing nicely. Of course not fast enough for some, sigh, but at a realistic rate. Apparently someone has done something right.

 

[lyleoross]

While you're watching go look at the Vibram Open, Beaver State Fling, and Master's Cup at De La in Santa Cruz. These are courses where the natural terrain allows enough difficulty to avoid tons of OB. TDs are still trying to figure out how to make locations without these natural elements strong enough to challenge top pros. See USCGC, a case where the TD does a good job at this.

Sponsoring World's is more than courses. It's management. The PDGA is not unlikely to choose a location with average courses but great management over the reverse. Courses can be made tougher, but bad management is tough to overcome. Emporia was chosen because of great management. Simple enough. I was an outspoken critic of the courses, but very respectful of the crew.

Enjoy the sport, accept that forums are fun but ultimately unreliable as a place to gather real info.

PS. European Opennis a great blend of OB and natural terrain. Also, see world's in Pennsylvania.

 

[ru4por]

The PDGA received zero bids from parties interested in hosting Pro Worlds. That should tell you something about the state of Worlds.

This is because of a litany of reasons, OB really have little to nothing to do with it. I am not sure what the point is here.

Prohibitive amounts of OB can definitely make you start hating the game in a hurry. Getting penalized for perfect shots that are OB because someone sets up arbitrary boundaries is stupid.

I think different players have different takes on OB. I think they present a unique challenge, given I don't get to play much OB often. When encountering it in Worlds or a big tournament, I love it when I am staying inside the ropes. Not so fond if I am bleeding strokes for living outside the lines.

Because playing in the woods is hard to broadcast, and playing in the open is too easy without contrived added difficulty.

This is the reason we see many Pro tournaments on open, ball golf type courses. David and Jenga make some great points here, and I agree. There is sadly not a lot of top tier courses that challenge the pro players.

 

[mike3216]

If those contrived areas were water or road or pathways, or other pre-existing features that were incorporated in the course design, would it make a difference? Is it the contrived nature that bothers you, or the O.B. itself?

O.B. provides a different hazard than trees. It gives the player more freedom in choosing his flight path, but less freedom in where the disc lands and comes to rest. And it creates higher-risk hazards, because there's no chance of a great recovery shot saving the player from his bad throw.

It's not to everyone's taste, but that's why it's there. Particularly on top events, when there aren't enough sufficiently-challenging O.B.-free courses in places where people will host these events.

As for golf---we're not golf. We do a lot of things differently. We're free to pick and choose which aspects of golf we wish to adopt, and which don't suit us. If we fall in the trap of doing things just because that's how golf does them, we could just play....golf.

It's definitely the contrived nature. I guess I have an internal sense of justness: A good shot should be rewarded, a bad shot should be punished. It's just annoying that punishment should be assessed for some arbitrary zone created to make the course tougher.

I don't think I would have ever started playing if I had to play on a course like that, but seeing as I suck at DG, I'm unlikely to ever have to deal such a course:gross:

 

[Cgkdisc]

Mike, check out this article that discusses better ways being sought than OB to provide more proportional penalties in DG:
http://www.pdga.com/better-granularity-better-sports

 

[discallday]

All players should know where the OB lines are, and if they don't then it's their own fault. If a shot goes OB, then it probably wasn't a very good shot. It may have been an impressive shot, but if it spills into OB, then it wasn't executed accurately enough. If you still disagree, perhaps you can direct us to at least one moment on film that helps make your case.

Rope OB has its uses, but it can be over-used IMO at times. But I'm not sure I would consider it to be any more or less "arbitrary" than a curb, or other permanent and/or natural delineation.

So far, I'm really liking the quality and variety of answers in this thread. :clap:

It's definitely the contrived nature. I guess I have an internal sense of justness: A good shot should be rewarded, a bad shot should be punished. It's just annoying that punishment should be assessed for some arbitrary zone created to make the course tougher.

 

[slowplastic]

It's definitely the contrived nature. I guess I have an internal sense of justness: A good shot should be rewarded, a bad shot should be punished. It's just annoying that punishment should be assessed for some arbitrary zone created to make the course tougher.

The thing is, that a course with a ton of trees and no set line is kind of a "throw and pray" situation. It can lead to higher scores, but not in a meaningful way that assesses a player's ability to reproduce shots. Now I know you are not referring to this type of course, but rather a "good" wooded course, but I'm just saying that pro's have a specific idea of what lines are fair and what are lucky.

The OB is roped off before players tee off...where they have to land is accounted for in their shot selection. If they threw the drive 500' but it ended up outside of the ropes, then it's not a good shot even though it's a bomb. A good shot in these situations is controlling your landing zone, playing the wind with respect to landing zone, and minimizing rolls/skips near OB lines.

I totally understand what you're saying about taking open holes and areas and roping things off to artificially increase difficulty. But in some cases it's a much more fair or skill based way of assessing and separating skills than having too many trees around. (I prefer the "right number of trees around"...)

 

[armiller]

While you're watching go look at the Vibram Open, Beaver State Fling, and Master's Cup at De La in Santa Cruz. These are courses where the natural terrain allows enough difficulty to avoid tons of OB. TDs are still trying to figure out how to make locations without these natural elements strong enough to challenge top pros. See USCGC, a case where the TD does a good job at this.

...

PS. European Opennis a great blend of OB and natural terrain. Also, see world's in Pennsylvania.

I think the Oregon courses (2014 Worlds, including Milo McIver) are a pretty good example too. Those CCDG vids totally got me hooked on disc golf.

I was watching the 2015 Aussie Open vids, and while those courses are easier to broadcast, I'm not sure they're more fun to watch. Don't get me wrong; I can't wait to watch Jomez's videos from this upcoming tournament... but I'd rather watch a nice wooded course.

 

[DavidSauls]

It's definitely the contrived nature. I guess I have an internal sense of justness: A good shot should be rewarded, a bad shot should be punished. It's just annoying that punishment should be assessed for some arbitrary zone created to make the course tougher.

I don't think I would have ever started playing if I had to play on a course like that, but seeing as I suck at DG, I'm unlikely to ever have to deal such a course:gross:

I understand the sentiment. I don't share it, but I understand.

I was appalled when I first saw it, at the first or second USDGC. A few years later I played an OB-laden course, and my feelings changed completely.

I'm not sure "arbitrary" s the right word. "Contrived", yes, since the TD designed it. But hopefully the design isn't arbitrary; hopefully it was well thought out. Like existing-features OB, contrived OB can be done well or poorly. My feeling is, if the hole would be good if that OB were a pre-existing feature, such as a road or water, it is equally good if the identical OB is marked by rope or flags. It's not a good shot if I throw into OB (pre-existing or contrived), or close enough to end up there, so I don't mind the punishment.

Which isn't to say that you should feel the same way. Just understand that that's the sentiment involved when others do.

 

[scarpfish]

Traditional golf uses OB very sparingly, letting you play it where it lies, unless you hit a hazard. Why should disc golf be any different?

I will give you a piece of advice. Please perish any notion of how traditional golf does things in relation to disc golf rules, practices or customs.

Disc golf adopted the word 'golf' and the objective of moving an object from a starting point to a finishing point in as few attempts as possible. Any commonalities between the two games after that are on an as needed basis. You will appreciate playing disc golf more if you learn to like it for what makes it distinct.

 

[armiller]

This is because of a litany of reasons, OB really have little to nothing to do with it. I am not sure what the point is here.

The point, I think, is that we're lucky there's a PDGA Worlds at all. So complaining about the quality of the courses is kind of a moot point, even though course quality is an issue that needs to be addressed in the future.

O.B. provides a different hazard than trees. It gives the player more freedom in choosing his flight path, but less freedom in where the disc lands and comes to rest.

There definitely needs to be a reasonable combination of the two hazards. But disc golf seems more fun to me when there's more emphasis on the need for proper flight path. Some have mentioned USDGC, but I always think it's hilarious when players don't have any idea if their disc landed in bounds or OB until someone raises a colored flag. Even if it provides scoring separation, I will never believe that that is disc golf at its finest.

I will give you a piece of advice. Please perish any notion of how traditional golf does things in relation to disc golf rules, practices or customs.

Disc golf adopted the word 'golf' and the objective of moving an object from a starting point to a finishing point in as few attempts as possible. Any commonalities between the two games after that are on an as needed basis. You will appreciate playing disc golf more if you learn to like it for what makes it distinct.

I still think it's an interesting exercise to understand the similarities and differences...

 

[loki the trickster]

While you're watching go look at the Vibram Open, Beaver State Fling, and Master's Cup at De La in Santa Cruz. These are courses where the natural terrain allows enough difficulty to avoid tons of OB. TDs are still trying to figure out how to make locations without these natural elements strong enough to challenge top pros. See USCGC, a case where the TD does a good job at this.

Sponsoring World's is more than courses. It's management. The PDGA is not unlikely to choose a location with average courses but great management over the reverse. Courses can be made tougher, but bad management is tough to overcome. Emporia was chosen because of great management. Simple enough. I was an outspoken critic of the courses, but very respectful of the crew.

Enjoy the sport, accept that forums are fun but ultimately unreliable as a place to gather real info.

PS. European Opennis a great blend of OB and natural terrain. Also, see world's in Pennsylvania.

Some very good points.

It needs to be remembered that traditional golf courses are built... many right down to the placement of ponds and trees. This allows for the placement of challenges(rough and bunckers) where the designer wants them.


Disc golf in nearly all aspects uses the land as it is and does not manipulate the land. Sometimes thats good and others you stuck usind flat, open and treeless land. Leaving directors to use ropes to force players to place shots more carefully or suffer.

I will say some artificial boundaries at some courses that i see look terrible and only appear to be there cause the TD can place ropes. Other times i think that TD's (USDGC is a excellent example) only use the ropes as needed and forces players to play smart.