Ethics of trimming trees?

[mrtho]

My local course looks like they built it in 2015 (according to this site) and then pretty much forgot about it.

Hole 4 is a double Mando but it now has a limb blocking a large portion of the gap. I frequently go out and see where someone keeps pulling the limb back and tangling it up out of the way (amazingly I never actually see anybody on the course though) and I usually untangle it before I throw.

The other day I was messing around on the other part of this site and figured out that there are pictures from the tee stamped March of 2015 and the limb is not there.

My question is would it be ethical to remove the limb?

One side of me says it would be Okay because it wasn't an obstacle that was intended to be there.

The other side of me says "you should play the course 'as is'".

I'm afraid that next summer the limb would actually be big enough to block the entire gap (it is probably blocking 75-80% now). What are your thoughts on removing the limb? Keep in mind I am wanting to "restore the course to original condition" not "remove the limb to make the hole easier just so it's easier".

 

[brutalbrutus]

The quick and easy version is, don't ever do course maintenance without approval from whoever is in charge of the park. Though I have removed my share of things in the past. Usually it is because of safety concerns. Like a small dead tree is fallen over and got caught up in something and we help it along. One time my weekend group rebuilt a big section of the wall around 15s green at idlewild. The creek flooded and knocked a bunch of the blocks into the creek.

 

[ejvogie]

Sort of like the question, "Is that drawing graffiti or art?"

My answer:

"Did the artist have permission to use the canvas?"

 

[Gblambert]

The quick and easy version is, don't ever do course maintenance without approval from whoever is in charge of the park.

Exactly. If you aren't knowledgeable about the trees on the property you could also unwittingly damage or even kill the tree. In our area we have live oak trees that are susceptible to a fungus transmitted by beetles that are attracted to the sap of a wounded tree. Once a tree is infected, the fungus gets into the vascular system and within 6 months the tree will be dead. Any other oaks in that cluster that are connected by roots will die soon after as well. The safest option would be to leave the pruning to the owners who are probably aware of the best practices for maintaining trees in your area.

 

[DavidSauls]

Or find out with where and with whom you can volunteer your help.

 

[CreemCheese]

If it's dead and tangled, fine, but if it's live leave it.
Do you have a local club that has someone who acts as a liaison with the parks department that you can report it through. If not, then contact the parks department and tell them about it. It'll be their decision (and their insurance) if they will let you cut it, or take care of it themselves.

 

[knettles]

Exactly. If you aren't knowledgeable about the trees on the property you could also unwittingly damage or even kill the tree. In our area we have live oak trees that are susceptible to a fungus transmitted by beetles that are attracted to the sap of a wounded tree. Once a tree is infected, the fungus gets into the vascular system and within 6 months the tree will be dead. Any other oaks in that cluster that are connected by roots will die soon after as well. The safest option would be to leave the pruning to the owners who are probably aware of the best practices for maintaining trees in your area.

I'm definitely not advocating guerrilla course maintenance, but the problem that I've seen comes when you encounter little courses that were put in a park by management who doesn't play disc golf, doesn't care enough to keep it maintained, but also doesn't want outside help. I used to live in West Virginia where there's a lot of small courses with heavy rough. At the time, I carried a machete on my bag. My rule of thumb was, unless given permission, never cut anything bigger than an inch. I kinda wish more people would carry machetes and cut some weeds here, some bramble there. That kind of stuff is always bad. It just gets more morally gray when you start talking about branches.

 

[Jimb]

I had a dream, no... a nightmare, one time that some players were pruning and cutting down trees on my course. I was not happy.

If they'd have been mowing grass, picking up sticks, or raking leaves, though, I would have been thrilled.

Ultimately, I wouldn't recommend removing anything from a course that's alive without permision. Although I do get knettle's take on WV undrgrowth.

 

[Steve West]

I'm definitely not advocating guerrilla course maintenance, but the problem that I've seen comes when you encounter little courses that were put in a park by management who doesn't play disc golf, doesn't care enough to keep it maintained, but also doesn't want outside help. I used to live in West Virginia where there's a lot of small courses with heavy rough. At the time, I carried a machete on my bag. My rule of thumb was, unless given permission, never cut anything bigger than an inch. I kinda wish more people would carry machetes and cut some weeds here, some bramble there. That kind of stuff is always bad. It just gets more morally gray when you start talking about branches.

Morally gray, maybe. Legally gray, most likely not. Here's an example of a typical ordinance. [Bold added.]

20.12.100 Vandalism; Protection of Park Property and Vegetation.

(Amended by Ordinance No. 184522, 185448 and 186053, effective January 1, 2015.)

A. No person shall take, remove, destroy, break, cut, injure, mutilate, or deface in any way or attach any thing to, any structure, monument, statue, vase, fountain, wall, fence, railing, gate, vehicle, bench, or other property in any Park. No person shall remove, destroy, break, injure, mutilate, or deface in any way in any Park any shrub, fern, plant, flower, or other vegetation. No person shall plant, prune, remove, destroy, break, injure, mutilate, or deface in any way in any Park any tree without a permit from the City Forester under the provisions of Title 11. This provision shall not prohibit authorized work done for, by or on behalf of the City.

 

[jeffmonty]

We (our club members) are encouraged to get out and basically do as much trimming as we like. Not many really go out and do it, though. It still has to be done responsibly of course, which means avoid cutting anything too big (larger branches, small trees, etc.) Everything else is pretty fair game. Around here, any trimming grows back in no time anyhow, so it's a struggle just to try to stay on top of things.

 

[PBokor]

We (our club members) are encouraged to get out and basically do as much trimming as we like. Not many really go out and do it, though. It still has to be done responsibly of course, which means avoid cutting anything too big (larger branches, small trees, etc.) Everything else is pretty fair game. Around here, any trimming grows back in no time anyhow, so it's a struggle just to try to stay on top of things.

We have a similar system. Clubs members are allowed a pretty wide berth by P&R as far as routine maintenance goes. We only have a couple of rules at present.

1 - No cutting anything live without P&R approval in advance. Aborist may have to concur on some decisions.

2 - Members have to meet with the P&R Ops Mgr face to face and sign a waiver before being allowed to perform any unsupervised maintenance.

P&R does all of the really heavy lifting, but if we abide by those two simple rules, we get to bring chain saws, chippers, pole saws, and anything else deemed necessary to assist with routine upkeep.

Until we make our first major mistake, we're golden. :clap:

 

[ODRB]

Sort of like the question, "Is that drawing graffiti or art?"

Can't it be both? (Not saying all graffiti deserves to be called art, but...)

ON a different note, do your best to find out who's running the show. Park staff? Local club? Guy who lives closest to the course? If you can't find out the answer through reasonable diligence, the answer might be that it's you.

 

[mmblink86]

Can't it be both? (Not saying all graffiti deserves to be called art, but...)

All I see is a crappy warehouse in Secaucus, NJ that is 20 years past its point of condemnation.

 

[Dr.Smooth]

From my experience most courses are under maintained ie limbs blocking ideal flight routes, etc.

From a course improvement/ethics perspective cut the limb. As long as you are not cutting down a tree you won't be doing any major harm.

And for that matter (an avid tree guru here) their are usually too many trees on most courses and error on the side of cutting down the tree/limb has usually been the best long term choice.

this is assuming the course isn't in the desert or plains.

 

[DavidSauls]

From my experience most courses are under maintained ie limbs blocking ideal flight routes, etc.

From a course improvement/ethics perspective cut the limb. As long as you are not cutting down a tree you won't be doing any major harm.

And for that matter (an avid tree guru here) their are usually too many trees on most courses and error on the side of cutting down the tree/limb has usually been the best long term choice.

this is assuming the course isn't in the desert or plains.

I disagree. Well, not with the first sentence, but....

One person's "limb in the wrong place" can be another person's "limb defining the shot". I've seen renegade trimmers change the intent of the designer / course maintainer / person in charge---just because they had a different opinion of where the fairway should be open, or restricted.

Not to mention a few places where anyone cutting anything enraged other park users, who went to authorities, which wasn't good for the disc golfers.

As for the rest, always error on the side of not cutting a tree down. If you leave it and it's later decided that it can come out, you can cut it then. If you cut it first, if it's later decided that the tree was wanted, you can't exactly put it back.

 

[biscoe]

what David said...

The process involved in any kind of maintenance beyond simply picking up trash and debris is going to differ from individual course to individual course. The importance of going through the process (whatever it may be) cannot be overstated. Step one is talking to the people in charge whether that is the parks dept or the club or whoever. If you talk to the parks dept and no one is in charge they will probably be happy to see that someone is offering some stewardship of the course.

The potential for negative consequences in simply going out and cutting stuff on your own is very real.

 

[art_vandelay]

Like David said, we've had a couple of our local "pros" out with tree trimming equipment altering lines on our courses. And it caused a pretty big stir and a lot of anger and a rumored fist fight. You don't take it upon yourself to changes a course more to your liking or style. You ask the course captain and work with the club. Just don't do it if you respect others and the courses you play on. This has been a couple years ago now and these guys are still a joke in my eyes, even through they are supposed to be pros.

 

[curmudgeonDwindle]

'Ethics' are a personal decision.

However, you can see by reading the posts to this thread, you'd be wise to cover your ass and do things the 'right' way, by following the (established) process. Despite the fact this may be a public park, stakeholders often feel a sense of ownership disproportionate to their actual roles in the situation.

On the up side, you'll be graciously introduced into the wonderful world of DG politics...

 

[BuiltTooLong]

Some Parks & Rec departments are extremely particular about no1 making ANY alterations to the park. So particular in fact that there have been courses pulled because of rogue trimmers.

I would not make any adjustments to the course until you talk with whomever is charge of maintaining the park.

 

[BuiltTooLong]

Like David said, we've had a couple of our local "pros" out with tree trimming equipment altering lines on our courses. And it caused a pretty big stir and a lot of anger and a rumored fist fight. You don't take it upon yourself to changes a course more to your liking or style. You ask the course captain and work with the club. Just don't do it if you respect others and the courses you play on. This has been a couple years ago now and these guys are still a joke in my eyes, even through they are supposed to be pros.

I played the nooner at JB this summer while in the area and heard this exact thing. With a club as established as you have, with course captains, its disheartening that a "pro" would make rogue changes to the course to benefit their own game.