Throw or Drop

[cheesethin]

This came up on Reddit.

Player is lining up a forehand shot and they are pumping the disc forwards and backwards a few times assessing their line, before they take their shot. Due to a loose grip the disc slips unintentionally out of their hand and flies forward a short distance.

Throw or drop or other?

 

[JC17393]

Based on QA-THR-1, it depends on the motion involved: "A throw begins when the disc is moving forward in the intended direction. A disc dropped or knocked out before or during a backswing does not count as a throw."

I'd say if it was a forward motion, and there wasn't anything that knocked the disc out of the thrower's hand, you have to call it a throw. I know I've been faked out by pumps enough that if the disc comes out, I don't know if I'd know the difference between intentional and accidental release.

 

[cheesethin]

My first read of the q&a lead me that way as well. But looking at*802.01 the definition of a throw now has an intention element in it (was this the 2018 rule change?).

A. A*throw*is the propulsion and release of a disc in order to change its position. Each throw that is made as a competitive attempt to change the lie is counted.

I think this means that a judgement call has to be made as to whether the player*propulsed*and released the disc in order to change its position. IE did they intend to let go? This inclusion of intentionality in the definition of a throw seems to carve out a space for drops to exist, even if they come from a forward movement.

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[biscoe]

drop

 

[JC17393]

My first read of the q&a lead me that way as well. But looking at*802.01 the definition of a throw now has an intention element in it (was this the 2018 rule change?).




I think this means that a judgement call has to be made as to whether the player*propulsed*and released the disc in order to change its position. IE did they intend to let go? This inclusion of intentionality in the definition of a throw seems to carve out a space for drops to exist, even if they come from a forward movement.

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I understand there's an intent element to it. That's not new, it was in the 2013 edition of the rules (it may be older but 2013 is the book I have handy). My point was intent is difficult to decipher in the moment. I've been fooled by enough pump fake style practice swings (turning my head to watch the non-existent disc fly) that if a player let go in a practice swing, the distinction between it being intentional or accidental can be difficult to discern. Difficult doesn't mean impossible. I suppose a player's reaction can be taken into account when making the call. I mean, if they curse or say "oops" or something that makes it obvious they didn't mean to let go, I wouldn't argue a ruling that it was a drop.

Ultimately, it is a judgment call so I don't think the rule can be black and white about it. I would approach a generic situation such as presented here from the point of view that it was a throw unless it can be proven otherwise.

 

[krupicka]

If they are on their lie and propel the disc forward, what else are we suppose to assume? I've had some bad releases where the disc slips out of my hand while throwing. I should not be able to say, "that's not what I meant to do" and get a do-over.

 

[cheesethin]

If they are on their lie and propel the disc forward, what else are we suppose to assume? I've had some bad releases where the disc slips out of my hand while throwing. I should not be able to say, "that's not what I meant to do" and get a do-over.

Yes there will be some hard to call situations where differentiating between practice swing and actual throw is tricky. But I don't think the rule can be interpreted as ANY forward movement on the lie constitutes a throw. Think Eagle or Conrad (these are the first two that come to mind), they both do a slow motion forward swing of the disc on their tee shots, as they gauge their intended line. It is obviously not an action intended to be an actual throw. If one of them let slip the disc in their slow motion swing, would you consider that a throw? I wouldn't, and this is where in order to change its position from 802.01 comes in to play. Someone being on their lie, and the disc travel forward is not enough on its own to constitute a throw. And no, I agree, a player can't simply say "didn't mean that, take backs", it is up to the card to judge whether it was an intentional 'throw' or not.

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[roggenb3]

If they are on their lie and propel the disc forward, what else are we suppose to assume? I've had some bad releases where the disc slips out of my hand while throwing. I should not be able to say, "that's not what I meant to do" and get a do-over.

Yeah, there's no need to bring any "intent" conversation into this picture.

On the lie? Check
Disc went forwards? Check

That was a throw.

 

[cheesethin]

Yeah, there's no need to bring any "intent" conversation into this picture.

On the lie? Check
Disc went forwards? Check

That was a throw.

But the definition of a throw 802.01 includes an intention element, you can't just ignore that part of the definition.

A*throw*is the propulsion and release of a disc in order to change its position. .......

A drop is an unintentional release.

Also a throw is not defined by its location. I can be 20m off my lie and still make a throw - it'll be a misplay or a practice throw depending, but it is still a 'throw'.

Being on the lie may well be evidence towards the player intending to throw, but not conclusive on its own.

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[Doofenshmirtz]

If they are on their lie and propel the disc forward, what else are we suppose to assume?

I agree with this sentiment.

I've had some bad releases where the disc slips out of my hand while throwing. I should not be able to say, "that's not what I meant to do" and get a do-over.

Correct. Because you intended to change its position and made and errant throw, whether due to a slip or not, it counts as a throw. This is not what the OP is talking about. He is talking about the happenstance where a player accidentally releases a disc before attempting to throw.

How do the players on the card to know the difference?

Wouldn't it be a better rule to state something to the effect of "propulsion of the disc forward (beyond the lie), once the player has taken a stance, constitutes a throw"? That way, no one has to guess the intent of the thrower. If the disc goes forward, its a throw. The rule might need to expand on "forward" for throws that might intentionally be made backward but which result in a better lie (i.e., throwing back out in to the fairway from brush, or toward a mando or around an obstacle, etc). Maybe, even simply "any release of the disc once the thrower has taken a stance is a throw"? I.e., it leaves your hand, its a throw. What could be the possible benefit of allowing players to drop or accidentally release a disc without counting the action as a throw once they've taken a stance?

 

[krupicka]

What could be the possible benefit of allowing players to drop or accidentally release a disc without counting the action as a throw once they've taken a stance?

I've seen many players take 2-3 drivers to the tee, assess the hole, step to the rear of the tee (still on it) and drop the ones not using behind them. Clearly they did not intended those as a throw. Personally it wouldn't take much for players to leave the tee and do the same thing, but it is a common routine.

 

[LateWesternSky]

Yeah, there's no need to bring any "intent" conversation into this picture.

On the lie? Check
Disc went forwards? Check

That was a throw.

So when you mark your lie for a putt, pick up the disc you threw from the tee (while on your lie) and set it on/in front of your marker, that is a throw?

Player on the lie? Check
Disc went forward? Check

Definitely not a throw.

 

[Doofenshmirtz]

I've seen many players take 2-3 drivers to the tee, assess the hole, step to the rear of the tee (still on it) and drop the ones not using behind them. Clearly they did not intended those as a throw. Personally it wouldn't take much for players to leave the tee and do the same thing, but it is a common routine.

So when you mark your lie for a putt, pick up the disc you threw from the tee (while on your lie) and set it on/in front of your marker, that is a throw?

Player on the lie? Check
Disc went forward? Check

Definitely not a throw.

Under the current rule, you are both correct. If the rule were to be changed as I suggested, and the players knew it, what would be their excuse for not having either counted as a throw? Or, is it better to leave some kind of intent determination on their cardmates as in the current rule?

 

[JoakimBL]

When on the lie, doing practice swings, you are intending to throw. You might not be intending to throw at that exact moment, but the same can be said for any early or late release. How a bout a bad tap in putt? "I just dropped my disc in the practice swing, doesn't count!"

I have a had a branch knock the disc out of my hand before i wanted to release it on a putt, but it wasn't a practice swing. Is that a throw?

 

[DavidSauls]

I once arrived at a leaf-covered tee, and decided to clear it by fanning it with one of my discs, swinging it back and forth just about ground level. Well, on one of those swings the disc slipped from my hand and went about 15 feet, not forward or backwards or down but left in relation to the hole's layout, through some brush and into a creek.

This was prior to the "forward motion" in the Q&A. It was also in a casual round, so never adjudicated. But it planted a bit of paranoia in my head to be more careful about what I do on the tee, particularly with a disc in my hand. And to brush and future leaves off with my feet.

As for the incident at hand, I'm comfortable with inferring intent. I expect there to be very few incidents where it's not obvious whether a player intended to throw, or not, and can live with the one-in-a-million graying of the line.

 

[Suspect]

When on the lie, doing practice swings, you are intending to throw. You might not be intending to throw at that exact moment, but the same can be said for any early or late release. How a bout a bad tap in putt? "I just dropped my disc in the practice swing, doesn't count!"

I have a had a branch knock the disc out of my hand before i wanted to release it on a putt, but it wasn't a practice swing. Is that a throw?

That is what happened to me on an upshot. I reached back, as pulling a little forward, the disc got caught in the bush a bit. The disc didn't even go past me. The card determined it wasn't a throw.

If the disc went any distance closer to the basket from my lie with that happening, is that a throw?

I think its a judgement call.

 

[Steve West]

Under the current rule, you are both correct. If the rule were to be changed as I suggested, and the players knew it, what would be their excuse for not having either counted as a throw? Or, is it better to leave some kind of intent determination on their cardmates as in the current rule?

Getting players to know rules that don't seem intuitive is difficult. An element of inferring intent is a worthy trade-off, compared to making a long list of natural and inconsequential actions illegal.

Also, we're self-officiated. The possible thrower is part of the group and can weigh in. A lot of times they'll make an immediate, reflexive (and therefore honest) comment about what happened.

 

[biscoe]

Has anyone ever been in a group in a PDGA event and had the group call something like this a throw against the declaration of the thrower that it was not? Just curious...

 

[cheesethin]

Wouldn't it be a better rule to state something to the effect of "propulsion of the disc forward (beyond the lie), once the player has taken a stance, constitutes a throw"?

A new rule like this would also need to account for throws taken while not on the lie/having taken a stance. Practice throws, misplays etc.

As for the incident at hand, I'm comfortable with inferring intent. I expect there to be very few incidents where it's not obvious whether a player intended to throw, or not, and can live with the one-in-a-million graying of the line.

I agree.

 

[cheesethin]

When on the lie, doing practice swings, you are intending to throw. You might not be intending to throw at that exact moment, but the same can be said for any early or late release.

I think that is expanding 'intention' beyond usefulness, when I turn up at the course and get my bag out of the van, I am 'intending' to throw.

802.01 defines the intention pretty narrowly:

A throw is the propulsion and release of a disc in order to change its position.

It ties the intention with the specific release - not some general 'if you let go while generally considering you might have a throw soon'.

...You might not be intending to throw at that exact moment, but the same can be said for any early or late release.

QA-THR-1 defines the starting point of a throw as the forward part of the motion not the backswing or before the backswing. An early or late release happens after this start point so is differentiated from practice swings.