Reach back era is over, long live the whip.

[sidewinder22]

You are reaching (pun intended). There is no way that the force used to resist gravity is causing your tendons to lose elasticity. And even if it was it would act the exact same way on an extended arm.

Honestly I find your grasp of Newtonian physics to be tenuous. Mine is as well but you are the one proposing to educate here. At this point I am willing to say your idea of "dynamic coiling" is pseudo science until proven otherwise.

Lol, ok chief.

Swinging the arm in a pendulum back and forth takes zero arm muscle, just a regular pendulum with a ball on string. If you are moving your body back and forth or spinning around, your arm/s will swing out loose and taut from the G-forces created.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2eWfwpahfk&t=52s

 

[SonicGuy]

It's more commonly referred to as a 'stretch reflex' and it's a very real term (just used a lot more in resistance training than anything else)

also known as stretch-shortening cycle

That is fine, but whips don't have tendons so this is completely off topic.

And even if it was on topic, why would you not be able to load a tendon when the arm is pre-coiled? The answer is of course that you can load a tendon from either position, but with your arm straight back you have the advantage of using all that mass behind the tendon to do the loading.

None of this even remotely applied to the pure voodoo of "dynamic coiling" as described by sidewinder.

 

[SonicGuy]

Lol, ok chief.

Swinging the arm in a pendulum back and forth takes zero arm muscle, just a regular pendulum with a ball on string. If you are moving your body back and forth or spinning around, your arm/s will swing out loose and taut from the G-forces created.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2eWfwpahfk&t=52s

Of course it will. Whether you start with your arm extended or coiled. You can get the same exact pendulum action starting from either position. You just get more force starting with an extended arm because the mass is further away from the center.

I don't understand why you are posting something that goes directly against your novel theory of "dynamic coiling".

 

[sidewinder22]

Of course it will. Whether you start with your arm extended or coiled. You can get the same exact pendulum action starting from either position. You just get more force starting with an extended arm because the mass is further away from the center.

I don't understand why you are posting something that goes directly against your novel theory of "dynamic coiling".

If you start pre-coiled and you never "reachback" like Dave Dunipace's video suggests, then you are not getting the same pendulum action.

If you start with the arm extended away the mass is further away, but the real key is that you can accelerate it more and change the direction of the acceleration more. Force = Mass x Acceleration. Your joints will bend/coil dynamically when your body accelerates/changes acceleration and the arm/disc lags.

 

[DG_player]

I believe the video, and I also believe you are mistaken

When you stretch out a rubber band, some of the potential energy is lost as the rubber band deforms. As you hold a rubber band stretched out, it is continually deforming, and losing its elasticity. In order for this to happen the energy in the system leaks via heat.

Your assertion that the heat is converted back into kinetic energy is wrong. If that were the case, one could simply heat up an elastic band to add to the kinetic energy. You would in fact have the worlds best heat exchange mechanism, and we would have no further use for turbines.

But of course that is not the case. The heat generated is lost forever from that system as soon as it is generated, there is no way to incorporate that back into the system. Instead, what is happening is that there is a continual generation of heat as the band deforms. It is not the loss of the existing heat that causes a loss of potential energy, but the continuous generation of new heat. At some point, the stretched band will be completely deformed and lose all elasticity and in turn will stop generating heat.

I would say this has nothing to do with the disc golf throw. By pre-coiling your arm you are not deforming an elastic band. Your arm, muscles, and tendons are at rest.

I'm going to agree that this fork in the discussion is completely irrelevant and has nothing to do with the disc golf throw. I'll just leave it at that, if you want to explore the physics more you can do your own research. I will leave you with this simple description from wikipedia:

Temperature affects the elasticity of a rubber band in an unusual way. Heating causes the rubber band to contract and cooling causes expansion.[11] Stretching a rubber band will cause it to release heat, while releasing it after it has been stretched will make it absorb heat, causing its surroundings to become a little cooler. This effect is due to the higher entropy of the unstressed state, which is more entangled and therefore has more states available. In other words, the ability to convert thermal energy into work while the rubber relaxes is allowed by the higher entropy of the relaxed state.

The result is that a rubber band behaves somewhat like an ideal monatomic gas inasmuch as (to good approximation) that elastic polymers do not store any potential energy in stretched chemical bonds. No elastic work is done to "stretch" molecules when work is done upon these bulk polymers. Instead, all work done to the rubber is "released" (not stored) and appears immediately in the polymer as thermal energy. Conversely, when the polymer does work on the surroundings (such as contracting to lift an object) it converts thermal energy to work in the process and cools in the same manner as an ideal gas, expanding while doing work.

 

[RFrance]

I believe this is Randy C.'s video follow up for the Dave Dunipace "Whip video." Click on the closed caption (CC) button for subtitles if you Finnish is a little rusty.

 

[lyleoross]

Lol, ok chief.

Swinging the arm in a pendulum back and forth takes zero arm muscle, just a regular pendulum with a ball on string. If you are moving your body back and forth or spinning around, your arm/s will swing out loose and taut from the G-forces created.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2eWfwpahfk&t=52s

I like a lot of what you write, and your adult attitude about many things, but your arm won't swing unless there is some muscle there. It may not be much, but it's there.

 

[sidewinder22]

I like a lot of what you write, and your adult attitude about many things, but your arm won't swing unless there is some muscle there. It may not be much, but it's there.

You can dingle your arm like a heavy wet towel hanging from the shoulder socket and whip it without using the arm muscles at all.


Arms get pulled out from centrifugal force, not the arm muscles.

 

[lyleoross]

Yes, in an experimental thought exercise. In reality, there is muscle movement going on there. But before I stick my foot in my mouth, what is the value of such a discussion? I see none. The throw is very active, not passive. Even the whip of the wrist is not passive, it is a combination of active arm movement, and some active wrist snap, IMO. A completely passive wrist would flop about, like your arm experiment. It is a subtle notion that too often escapes folks who discuss this topic.

The arm movement should be such that it maximizes the position of the disc and the wrist to allow an efficient snap. That snap has elements that are both passive and active.

BTW - it is good to see that Dave is finally moving away from a passive throw to one where the mechanism moves you towards a more active process. If I understand this discussion. Perhaps not.

 

[NoseDownKing]

Yes, in an experimental thought exercise. In reality, there is muscle movement going on there. But before I stick my foot in my mouth, what is the value of such a discussion? I see none. The throw is very active, not passive. Even the whip of the wrist is not passive, it is a combination of active arm movement, and some active wrist snap, IMO. A completely passive wrist would flop about, like your arm experiment. It is a subtle notion that too often escapes folks who discuss this topic.



The arm movement should be such that it maximizes the position of the disc and the wrist to allow an efficient snap. That snap has elements that are both passive and active.



BTW - it is good to see that Dave is finally moving away from a passive throw to one where the mechanism moves you towards a more active process. If I understand this discussion. Perhaps not.

I'm not saying that you are in denial, but don't trash down the fact that "using the arm as a pendulum takes zero arm muscles". It is true since you could stick a ball on a string pendulum on your shoulder right now and start swinging it with your body. Obviously there is little muscle involvement going on, but you shouldn't be thinking about it that way.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

 

[sidewinder22]

Yes, in an experimental thought exercise. In reality, there is muscle movement going on there. But before I stick my foot in my mouth, what is the value of such a discussion? I see none. The throw is very active, not passive. Even the whip of the wrist is not passive, it is a combination of active arm movement, and some active wrist snap, IMO. A completely passive wrist would flop about, like your arm experiment. It is a subtle notion that too often escapes folks who discuss this topic.

The arm movement should be such that it maximizes the position of the disc and the wrist to allow an efficient snap. That snap has elements that are both passive and active.

BTW - it is good to see that Dave is finally moving away from a passive throw to one where the mechanism moves you towards a more active process. If I understand this discussion. Perhaps not.

I agree it is a mix of passive and active, so I'm not sure why you think the passive part should be dismissed in this discussion. Like I demonstrate in the vid and like Climo said it is very much like using a hammer, start loose and tighten at the hit to deliver blow, bam! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1pkfJtVq-8#t=3m20s

BlakeT used to talk about half-hitting vs full-hitting, and half-hitting is the passive whip which you must get to first before you can actively fully-hit. Half-hitting with limp arm will get your kinetic chain working in proper sequence.

Dave D has been teaching the tip of the whip since at least 2001.
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/dgr/resources/articles/distancesecrets.shtml
"Load your wrist and fingers lightly with the wrist down and the disc in the "launch" position so that it is only necessary to concentrate on acceleration and not form. The launch position is the position and orientation of the disc in your hand at the hit point. Regardless of whether the disc is at the hit point (launch) or in wind up, you have to hold the disc such that when it starts to pivot and rip out it will have the proper tilt and nose angle that you want the shot to have. Keep your wrist cocked down but not curled back. Your wrist should be more or less in a hand shaking position but cocked down. You also need a wrist down position to have the disc flat to avoid off axis torquing (disc flutter) and severe loss of power. If you hold the disc in the pre-pivot position, all you have to do is put it at the hit spot and the angles will already be there. It works the same for a putt or an up shot. Not everyone does this, but it makes shots easier.

The upper arm muscles should not be pre-stiffened. Only the lower arm and wrist should be stiffened and you should only be using enough tension in your wrist and fingers to maintain the orientation of the hit. The launch position includes the position of the flight plate and most importantly the back of the disc at the time of launch.

Right before the hit starts the wrist will wag back slightly and then go forward slightly. This is when the part happens that's important to remember. Your wrist should not continue forward to sling the disc out; instead it should come to an abrupt, steely stop. At this point your wrist should be stiff and held motionless, so try to stiffen your fingers, wrist, and arm as much as possible at the moment of impact of the snap. It's similar to a karate chop in that there is very little wrist motion. You don't want to keep your wrist stiff throughout the whole throw, though. At the beginning of the throw you want to only have enough tension in the fingers and wrist to hold the disc in launch position. You only become tight at the hit. Notice, too, that using the tendon bounce does not mean that your arm stops just because your wrist motion stops. The arm and shoulders must continue to pull through the snap with as much force as possible as the disc is ripping out of your fingers. Pulling through the hit with your hips and shoulders generates power."

 

[Casey 1988]

I agree it is a mix of passive and active, so I'm not sure why you think the passive part should be dismissed in this discussion. Like I demonstrate in the vid and like Climo said it is very much like using a hammer, start loose and tighten at the hit to deliver blow, bam! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1pkfJtVq-8#t=3m20s

BlakeT used to talk about half-hitting vs full-hitting, and half-hitting is the passive whip which you must get to first before you can actively fully-hit. Half-hitting with limp arm will get your kinetic chain working in proper sequence.

Dave D has been teaching the tip of the whip since at least 2001.
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/dgr/resources/articles/distancesecrets.shtml
"Load your wrist and fingers lightly with the wrist down and the disc in the "launch" position so that it is only necessary to concentrate on acceleration and not form. The launch position is the position and orientation of the disc in your hand at the hit point. Regardless of whether the disc is at the hit point (launch) or in wind up, you have to hold the disc such that when it starts to pivot and rip out it will have the proper tilt and nose angle that you want the shot to have. Keep your wrist cocked down but not curled back. Your wrist should be more or less in a hand shaking position but cocked down. You also need a wrist down position to have the disc flat to avoid off axis torquing (disc flutter) and severe loss of power. If you hold the disc in the pre-pivot position, all you have to do is put it at the hit spot and the angles will already be there. It works the same for a putt or an up shot. Not everyone does this, but it makes shots easier.

The upper arm muscles should not be pre-stiffened. Only the lower arm and wrist should be stiffened and you should only be using enough tension in your wrist and fingers to maintain the orientation of the hit. The launch position includes the position of the flight plate and most importantly the back of the disc at the time of launch.

Right before the hit starts the wrist will wag back slightly and then go forward slightly. This is when the part happens that's important to remember. Your wrist should not continue forward to sling the disc out; instead it should come to an abrupt, steely stop. At this point your wrist should be stiff and held motionless, so try to stiffen your fingers, wrist, and arm as much as possible at the moment of impact of the snap. It's similar to a karate chop in that there is very little wrist motion. You don't want to keep your wrist stiff throughout the whole throw, though. At the beginning of the throw you want to only have enough tension in the fingers and wrist to hold the disc in launch position. You only become tight at the hit. Notice, too, that using the tendon bounce does not mean that your arm stops just because your wrist motion stops. The arm and shoulders must continue to pull through the snap with as much force as possible as the disc is ripping out of your fingers. Pulling through the hit with your hips and shoulders generates power."

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCTRRcU4Nkj5X1J4OvOU9Ilw
On whamer page link above you will see with older pre beveled edge Disc Golf Discs like the Puppy That Dave D is doing the Tip of The Whip perhaps with more Wrist action that with modern discs one does not want due to using such a US Disc, but that was all that was out, a Puppy or other brands small or ROC sized diameter lid like disc.

 

[deyo7]

I believe this is Randy C.'s video follow up for the Dave Dunipace "Whip video." Click on the closed caption (CC) button for subtitles if you Finnish is a little rusty.

I agree it is a mix of passive and active, so I'm not sure why you think the passive part should be dismissed in this discussion. Like I demonstrate in the vid and like Climo said it is very much like using a hammer, start loose and tighten at the hit to deliver blow, bam! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1pkfJtVq-8#t=3m20s

BlakeT used to talk about half-hitting vs full-hitting, and half-hitting is the passive whip which you must get to first before you can actively fully-hit. Half-hitting with limp arm will get your kinetic chain working in proper sequence.

Dave D has been teaching the tip of the whip since at least 2001.
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/dgr/resources/articles/distancesecrets.shtml
"Load your wrist and fingers lightly with the wrist down and the disc in the "launch" position so that it is only necessary to concentrate on acceleration and not form. The launch position is the position and orientation of the disc in your hand at the hit point. Regardless of whether the disc is at the hit point (launch) or in wind up, you have to hold the disc such that when it starts to pivot and rip out it will have the proper tilt and nose angle that you want the shot to have. Keep your wrist cocked down but not curled back. Your wrist should be more or less in a hand shaking position but cocked down. You also need a wrist down position to have the disc flat to avoid off axis torquing (disc flutter) and severe loss of power. If you hold the disc in the pre-pivot position, all you have to do is put it at the hit spot and the angles will already be there. It works the same for a putt or an up shot. Not everyone does this, but it makes shots easier.

The upper arm muscles should not be pre-stiffened. Only the lower arm and wrist should be stiffened and you should only be using enough tension in your wrist and fingers to maintain the orientation of the hit. The launch position includes the position of the flight plate and most importantly the back of the disc at the time of launch.

Right before the hit starts the wrist will wag back slightly and then go forward slightly. This is when the part happens that's important to remember. Your wrist should not continue forward to sling the disc out; instead it should come to an abrupt, steely stop. At this point your wrist should be stiff and held motionless, so try to stiffen your fingers, wrist, and arm as much as possible at the moment of impact of the snap. It's similar to a karate chop in that there is very little wrist motion. You don't want to keep your wrist stiff throughout the whole throw, though. At the beginning of the throw you want to only have enough tension in the fingers and wrist to hold the disc in launch position. You only become tight at the hit. Notice, too, that using the tendon bounce does not mean that your arm stops just because your wrist motion stops. The arm and shoulders must continue to pull through the snap with as much force as possible as the disc is ripping out of your fingers. Pulling through the hit with your hips and shoulders generates power."

So maybe a little confused - just want to dumb this all down and clarify.

I really like Randy's video so not picking on that but he says that he is commanding himself to snap the wrist open around 430 (watch from 4:00 on at minimum). I've been going about it quite differently, almost opposite, in my mind anyway. I have to command myself NOT open the wrist, as in resist my wrist's desire to sling forward until the end. Maybe it's because Randy doesn't have to think about that part since he's been doing it for so long, allowing him to only concentrate on the end goal of whipping the disc? Which is ultimately my goal in trying to resist my wrists desire to open prematurely - that is, to get a late snap by slinging opposite edge of disc late.

Am I going about it wrong or is this the same thing as what Dunipace is saying in the above quote where he talks about holding disc at launch point? I'm essentially holding my wrist closed after the lag from plant. I don't really feel like that's precurling but what do I know.

 

[Lazerface]

The simple tip to imagine the disc is weighted like a hammer and the opposite edge of the disc from my grip was the weighted end was how "snap" clicked for me. I also like snapping a towel to get the feeling.

 

[slowplastic]

I have to command myself NOT open the wrist, as in resist my wrist's desire to sling forward until the end. Maybe it's because Randy doesn't have to think about that part since he's been doing it for so long, allowing him to only concentrate on the end goal of whipping the disc? Which is ultimately my goal in trying to resist my wrists desire to open prematurely - that is, to get a late snap by slinging opposite edge of disc late.

Maybe your balance isn't forward enough, so your axis isn't where it should be to release the wrist away from you late. If you're stuck on your back leg or between your feet, your torso will open sooner with your arm kind of jammed at your chest, so your wrist will want to start pushing forward so much sooner. If you get to your front leg and your arm can swing through/past your body, it won't want to start moving "around" until later and that will cause your wrist to open and sling the disc away from you as you want.

 

[deyo7]

Maybe your balance isn't forward enough, so your axis isn't where it should be to release the wrist away from you late. If you're stuck on your back leg or between your feet, your torso will open sooner with your arm kind of jammed at your chest, so your wrist will want to start pushing forward so much sooner. If you get to your front leg and your arm can swing through/past your body, it won't want to start moving "around" until later and that will cause your wrist to open and sling the disc away from you as you want.

Yeah, very well could be true and something to be mindful of, but as I stand here in my office mindful of this I still feel like I actively use my wrist to hold the back edge of the disc in position for as long as possible...

 

[slowplastic]

Yeah, very well could be true and something to be mindful of, but as I stand here in my office mindful of this I still feel like I actively use my wrist to hold the back edge of the disc in position for as long as possible...

If you swing a golf club downward or a baseball bat forward, do you feel like you're holding the head of the club back? To me it feels like I'm pulling the handle forward and momentum is holding the club back. Then as my shoulders open or I approach the ball, the angles work out to start the club head swinging outward and that's because my wrists start to break forward toward neutral. That's through ball contact and then they continue to release the rest of the way in the follow through.

It's a similar thing with a disc, the momentum/weight holds my wrist in a good angle and because my shoulders don't feel like they open until the disc is in a forward position, my wrist doesn't want to break open until then.

 

[RandyC]

So maybe a little confused - just want to dumb this all down and clarify.

I really like Randy's video so not picking on that but he says that he is commanding himself to snap the wrist open around 430 (watch from 4:00 on at minimum). I've been going about it quite differently, almost opposite, in my mind anyway. I have to command myself NOT open the wrist, as in resist my wrist's desire to sling forward until the end. Maybe it's because Randy doesn't have to think about that part since he's been doing it for so long, allowing him to only concentrate on the end goal of whipping the disc? Which is ultimately my goal in trying to resist my wrists desire to open prematurely - that is, to get a late snap by slinging opposite edge of disc late.

Am I going about it wrong or is this the same thing as what Dunipace is saying in the above quote where he talks about holding disc at launch point? I'm essentially holding my wrist closed after the lag from plant. I don't really feel like that's precurling but what do I know.

Think handle first, should help things out. In this case, disc is the handle.

 

[RFrance]

I'm finally starting to feel the snap a little since I now understand "feeling the weight of the disc" and the pendulum swing. Right at the hit point I think about hitting the nail on the head like SW does in this video. In my practice I'm taking nice slow swings like RandyC does in his video.

https://youtu.be/v1pkfJtVq-8?t=153

 

[sidewinder22]

Yeah, very well could be true and something to be mindful of, but as I stand here in my office mindful of this I still feel like I actively use my wrist to hold the back edge of the disc in position for as long as possible...

If you are hugging yourself, the wrist wants to fly open. If you are hugging the disc with wide upper arm and/or elbow bent leading forward, the wrist will lag back closed until you stop/slow extending your elbow and/or hip rotation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2eWfwpahfk#t=2m10s