Laura Nagtegaal 2019 Amateur World Champion FA40

[Nova P]

Yeah, I get the feeling that many people still aren't aware of this, or willfully ignorant of it.

This has been found to be the case in surveys. The former, I mean, not the latter.

 

[gingerandhoney]

is not all the doping in sports the big problem? All those insane world records from the 80´s that still stands today

It´s seems MUCH more likely that a woman would take Doping to Win than that a man would go through a sex change to win

Do we even have doping controls in discgolf?

In Norway, yes, doping controls are being administered.

And on the subject, technically, transgender women take ANTI-doping.

 

[gingerandhoney]

Which blew it wide open. Do you think you win without that? You did dominate the playoffs but not quite to the extent that 4th round separated you.

I honestly believe that if that 4th round hadn't happened, that IF I had won it at all, it'd have been by maybe 1 shot, or even a play off. I had never been in semis, let along finals anything like at Worlds (let alone ever having had a gallery, even if it was just the modest 20 pp gallery we had in FA40).

Like you noted, at the end of the previous rouds I was constantly trailing (and never got tied or in the lead), by 3, 4, and 2 shots respectively.

In that 4th round (we played the same course in 2nd round (Kerri beat me by one) and semis (I beat her by 5), where I hit one single tree (favourable kick for par) and had 100% putting percentage on that leftie-friendly, favouring 250-300ft shots, with 11 wooded lanes, Kerri hit MANY early trees (I saw her force her lines, trying to stay on pace with me), AND failed to convert her birdie putts.

BECAUSE I had that cushion of 13 after the 4th round (from trailing by two), I think I all but secured the title. I never took the pressure off, but I DID suffer in the 6th round.
I think I actually played my BEST golf in the 5th round, that was a course that favoured EXECUTION and PLAN more than LUCK (the 11 wooded lanes), and I played really smart, despite getting unlucky with 2 OB's, and lame upshots that followed. Only those two upshots we poor, the OB's just happened, getting unlucky on doing a LHBH hyzer route over OB all along the left side; risk/reward.
In the 6th round, where Kerri took the biggest bite out of me (4), but not enough to really hurt me, I had started that round leading by 15. I played poorly; I felt completely powerless (hello lack of testosterone), I could not get my drives to stay in the center of the fairway, and sprayed them left and right (early tree kicks, lost disc)

In the semis and finals, I just felt "at ease", and that meant I could take risks where I WANTED to, instead of where I HAD to. And THAT is where my mental game isn't worth mentioning. So, had we been in a situation where we entered the semis tied (ironically, without that 4th round, and all things staying the same, I'd have entered the semis trailing by 4), I doubt I would have come back from that.

 

[Three Putt]

In Norway, yes, doping controls are being administered.

And on the subject, technically, transgender women take ANTI-doping.

OK, this is a dumb question I admit but I'll ask. Would someone making a female to male transition run afowl of doping controls? They would be taking testosterone, wouldn't they? It would seem silly to not allow them to compete against men, but might they be caught in a technicality?

 

[gingerandhoney]

Thank you for the detailed reply.

The stamina thing is interesting. To be clear, are you saying that being female is itself the reason for your decreased stamina, or that the process of becoming female is the cause, including any medications being taken, dietary changes, periods of inactivity/recovery, etc.?

The fact that - using a car analogy - I had let's say a Chevy Corvette, that needs to run on premium & a bit of nitrous (together = testosterone) to make good use of the capabilities.
What happens if I put regular (estrogen) in the tank, and had disconnected the nitrous tank?

Ie. by removing the testosterone from my body, and replacing it with estrogen, I am self-inflicting a decrease in performability (noelogism , just made it up).

Another clear example, is what I do on stage, I used to be able (pun intended) man-handle 250lb-300lb flightcases without too much trouble. I struggle with my techbox (50lb) nowadays.

 

[gingerandhoney]

OK, this is a dumb question I admit but I'll ask. Would someone making a female to male transition run afowl of doping controls? They would be taking testosterone, wouldn't they? It would seem silly to not allow them to compete against men, but might they be caught in a technicality?

I actually really like the question, as it implicitly also touches on the Caster Semenya case (South African 800m runner with DSD, creating too much testosterone naturally).

I do not know of any registered case of transmen in competition, but yes, technically speaking, they are administering a controlled substance which is on WADA's forbidden substances list.

The question is, the flip side of the transgender woman threshold ( below 10nmol/l = eligible to play womens' division), does that imply that a person like Caster Semenya should be allowed to have testosterone values up to 10nmol/l? The IAAF claims
And how much testosterone would a tranman be allowed to take without setting off doping alarms (male normal range is roughly 15-35nmol/l).

 

[gingerandhoney]

I actually really like the question, as it implicitly also touches on the Caster Semenya case (South African 800m runner with DSD, creating too much testosterone naturally).

I do not know of any registered case of transmen in competition, but yes, technically speaking, they are administering a controlled substance which is on WADA's forbidden substances list.

The question is, the flip side of the transgender woman threshold ( below 10nmol/l = eligible to play womens' division), does that imply that a person like Caster Semenya should be allowed to have testosterone values up to 10nmol/l? The IAAF claims
And how much testosterone would a tranman be allowed to take without setting off doping alarms (male normal range is roughly 15-35nmol/l).

I pressed "submit" too early, the "The IAAF claims..." sentence wasn't finished.
That should end with "... she, and DSD / hyperandrogenous people should keep their testosterone values below 5nmol/l. Weird how tranagender women are exempt.

I am definitely interested in seeing the merits of the threshold dropping from 10nmol/l to 5nmol/l.
BUT, what I find highly questionable that the IAAF did, is only instate that rule for the 800m (Caster's distance) and one distance either side of hers, the 400m and 1500m. Which makes it seem more like "let's disenfranchise Caster rather than making good rules changes".

 

[Nova P]

BUT, what I find highly questionable that the IAAF did, is only instate that rule for the 800m (Caster's distance) and one distance either side of hers, the 400m and 1500m. Which makes it seem more like "let's disenfranchise Caster rather than making good rules changes".

I heard a really interesting segment about this on NPR a few months ago. Apparently what the IAAF did was go over all of the track and field events with a fine-toothed comb and pore over the data to determine which events are more or less affected by athletes having too-high testosterone levels, and selectively only put the rule in place in those events where the data indicated.

And apparently it was a bit of a cluster-(HONK).

 

[DiscFifty]

What is the proper term to differentiate between these two:

A) A male who identifies as a woman but has not made any medical, physical changes.
B) A male who has made the medical/physical transformation to a woman.

I don't see how B could ever be accused of transitioning just to gain an advantage over other women in sports.

 

[Putt for D'oh]

I heard a really interesting segment about this on NPR a few months ago. Apparently what the IAAF did was go over all of the track and field events with a fine-toothed comb and pore over the data to determine which events are more or less affected by athletes having too-high testosterone levels, and selectively only put the rule in place in those events where the data indicated.

And apparently it was a bit of a cluster-(HONK).

Seems like a cluster. Read theses last few out of order so my first reaction was the 60m (indoor) and 800m would probably the MOST affected by testosterone. Different bonuses from it but the 800m might have the largest discrepancy in time between men and women world records which I would think is a bit of an indication of testosterone being a big bonus.

I can see how the specific ban must have looked but also understand where it may have come from.

A bit interested in this side of the whole discussion as elevated levels of hormones to even a playing field need to be treated the same if it is natural or artificial.

With a trans female to male transition i guess it would be testing at time of competition to see what is in the blood? Even though other athletes are tested year round? ?

 

[Nova P]

What is the proper term to differentiate between these two:

A) A male who identifies as a woman but has not made any medical, physical changes.
B) A male who has made the medical/physical transformation to a woman.

I don't see how B could ever be accused of transitioning just to gain an advantage over other women in sports.

To be precise, the proper term is the one the person asks for. However, in either of your two cases, if someone identifies as a woman, call them one.

Of course, only one of those two could be eligible to compete in a gender-protected division in the PDGA, per the most recent policy update.

 

[DiscFifty]

To be precise, the proper term is the one the person asks for. However, in either of your two cases, if someone identifies as a woman, call them one.

I didn't make myself clear, sorry... so are both "transgenders" ? The "cisgender" term had me thinking if there was a term to differentiate between them. Thx.

 

[Nova P]

I didn't make myself clear, sorry... so are both "transgenders" ? The "cisgender" term had me thinking if there was a term to differentiate between them. Thx.

Both of the people in your example are transgender. Transgender is a broad term for people who identify as a gender that is not the same one as at the time of their birth.

edit: OH! I get your meaning now. As far as I know there's currently no quick and easy term to differentiate between those who have and who have not done any medical things related to being transgender. And also, it's considered tacky to ask someone the configuration of their genitals, the chemistry of their bloodstream, or their genetic karyotype unless you're their doctor or mom.

 

[wolfhaley]

How am I being an ass? And where am I shouting red white and blue?

That's my bad Horsman. I meant to quote Sonic not you. I have no issues with you or your opinions. To the contrary actually. What I said was meant for Sonic. I'm terrible with computers. :wall:

 

[wolfhaley]

Anyhow...back on topic. So I feel that it hasn't been discussed much about the total opposite of this topic. A little bit, but going from identifying as a female to male. Is testosterone tested and how so by the PDGA and IOC? And what about banned substances in general like fertility drugs? There's lists of banned substances right. But one certain ingredient in any substance thats not listed on the label can trigger a positive test. I ask this because I've seen or heard about football players taking something that was banned, for fertility, and it wasn't on the NFL's list of banned substances. Now in a mixed gender sport I could see this becoming a whole can of worms so to speak. Honest question

 

[racer93]

OK, this is a dumb question I admit but I'll ask. Would someone making a female to male transition run afowl of doping controls? They would be taking testosterone, wouldn't they? It would seem silly to not allow them to compete against men, but might they be caught in a technicality?

I would say they would be fine IF AND ONLY IF their free testosterone levels were within normal limits for a man. Where M->F transitions run afoul is that their T levels are well supraphysiologic levels for a woman. I'm simplifying things here greatly but it's a good 30,000' view.

 

[wolfhaley]

And also your average joe can buy P90X without a doctors note. Anybody who has listened to sports radio in the last couple years is Painfully aware of this. Not doctor prescribed, but easily available. So it's ok for men to buy and ingest products frequently advertised on TV that "boost" testosterone? But a man transitioning to a woman taking estrogen is somehow so worse, doctor prescribed by the way. Not mel kiper selling it to me? So basically can a man have TOO much testosterone. Just curious?

 

[Smigles]

Anyhow...back on topic. So I feel that it hasn't been discussed much about the total opposite of this topic. A little bit, but going from identifying as a female to male. Is testosterone tested and how so by the PDGA and IOC? And what about banned substances in general like fertility drugs? There's lists of banned substances right. But one certain ingredient in any substance thats not listed on the label can trigger a positive test. I ask this because I've seen or heard about football players taking something that was banned, for fertility, and it wasn't on the NFL's list of banned substances. Now in a mixed gender sport I could see this becoming a whole can of worms so to speak. Honest question

A woman transitioning to a man does not have the physical advantages of a man turning into a woman, so it shouldn't be much of a problem.

I dont know of ANY tests by the PDGA, so i dont know about any tests of testosterone either.

 

[Jsmithey]

What is the proper term to differentiate between these two:

A) A male who identifies as a woman but has not made any medical, physical changes.
B) A male who has made the medical/physical transformation to a woman.

I don't see how B could ever be accused of transitioning just to gain an advantage over other women in sports.

Some people use the term pre/post op transgender

i.e someone who hasnt had surgery would be a pre-op trans woman someone who has would be a post-op trans woman.

 

[Jsmithey]

Anyhow...back on topic. So I feel that it hasn't been discussed much about the total opposite of this topic. A little bit, but going from identifying as a female to male. Is testosterone tested and how so by the PDGA and IOC? And what about banned substances in general like fertility drugs? There's lists of banned substances right. But one certain ingredient in any substance thats not listed on the label can trigger a positive test. I ask this because I've seen or heard about football players taking something that was banned, for fertility, and it wasn't on the NFL's list of banned substances. Now in a mixed gender sport I could see this becoming a whole can of worms so to speak. Honest question

If a trans man is above the 10nmol set by the ioc/pdga they would no longer be eligible for gender protected divisions and be required to participate in mixed division.