Drive Leg Mechanics

[SuperWookie]

Ok, so what do we need to do, if we are ER or IR dominant? To throw discs better? I watched that video, and all it seems like it does is explain WHAT type you are. When you usually do these types of moves with your body, you're ER dominate. And when you do these types of moves with your body, you're IR dominant. Well Ok, what now, haha?

I did a few tests and I am 100% ER dominant. I can't even turn my feet out more than a few inches when trying to do the test, haha. But can fairly easily get my legs into a knot or cross my legs. So knowing that I'm ER dominant, how would I want to go about learning how to throw better? What kind of things about my hips and body make throwing easier or harder.

 

[sidewinder22]

Ok, so what do we need to do, if we are ER or IR dominant? To throw discs better? I watched that video, and all it seems like it does is explain WHAT type you are. When you usually do these types of moves with your body, you're ER dominate. And when you do these types of moves with your body, you're IR dominant. Well Ok, what now, haha?

I did a few tests and I am 100% ER dominant. I can't even turn my feet out more than a few inches when trying to do the test, haha. But can fairly easily get my legs into a knot or cross my legs. So knowing that I'm ER dominant, how would I want to go about learning how to throw better? What kind of things about my hips and body make throwing easier or harder.

You should use Gavin as your prototype instead of KJUSA. Play around your with your foot angles and see what works and what doesn't, and use what works and disregard what doesn't.

PSA post #1, part 4 Form Models.
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126516

https://treadathletics.com/how-does-hip-anatomy-affect-your-ideal-mechanics/

 

[SuperWookie]

You should use Gavin as your prototype instead of KJUSA. Play around your with your foot angles and see what works and what doesn't, and use what works and disregard what doesn't.

PSA post #1, part 4 Form Models.
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126516

https://treadathletics.com/how-does-hip-anatomy-affect-your-ideal-mechanics/

I've read this article already.... good stuff. And watched a lot of his videos. But it still doesn't have any info on HOW to practice throwing better once you know if you're IR or ER dominant.

Well, I wish Gavin had some really good footage of lots of throws on YT, but he doesn't. It's very hard to find lots of good slow mo or just regular footage with good angles and good camera work for any of the pros that aren't considered "top tier". But I'll try and see if I can find footage of Gavin.

But it just confuses me. Because just a few weeks ago and another time a few months ago I posted footage of my swing in my form review. And you and HUB both said I need to work on having my toe of my foot IN, heel leading when my plant leg comes out of the X step. Which is a form of IR hip mobility. Something I don't have. And you both said that it is causing me a power leak by landing with my foot slightly open, instead of closed or square. But now you're telling me it's alright that Gavin does it, and I should copy him??? I'm confused.

I'm just lost so often with all this advice sometimes. Myself and a lot of others consider you an expert on the throw. Not just disc golf, but a lot of sports movements. It's very clear you understand the mechanics and movements at a deep level. And we greatly appreciate your time and effort making videos and spending so much time on the forums here trying to help us all! So when you tell me or us something, we/I take it as gospel. Just like with my questions about stomping your plant foot, vs swinging your leg out. So when you told me I shouldn't be throwing with my plant foot slightly open, and now you tell me it's alright, that's contradicting and confusing me.

I know I have more hip retroversion than anteversion, but don't have good hip mobility just in general, and have always had tight hips and certain other parts of my body as well (horrible upper back flexibility as well. Couldn't be a good Olympic lifter or Swimmer if I tried for the rest of my life, haha). While some parts of my body are really flexible. Im 6'8" and have never been that flexible compared to others. Sure, I'm athletic, have good balance, and all this other stuff FOR MY SIZE, but not as good when compared to the general population. Just wish I knew what I needed to do in order to maximize my throw with this new info about being ER dominant. I think I'll message some of those baseball coaches and see if they can offer up any advice or helpful drills. And then I can extrapolate that to disc golf.

 

[Waddball]

So when you told me I shouldn't be throwing with my plant foot slightly open, and now you tell me it's alright, that's contradicting and confusing me.

I get where you're coming from on this. But having been a coach for a long time, I also get that different people need to hear things in different ways, or even the same way 40 separate times before the message finally gets through. And different body types need to do different things.

I personally find sw22's patience and persistence with this stuff saintly, even when I get frustrated that it doesn't seem to quite fit my unique problem. As usually I later realize that I was just thinking about the issue backwards (or whatever).

Just a quick, probably obvious and thus unhelpful, point about this particular issue: have you been able to isolate the correct hip/foot movement from a standstill? I'm 6'5" and also don't have great hip mobility (i'm a wretched dancer). But I've found that if you can isolate from a standstill and then work VERY SLOWLY backward from that, it can help.

 

[Jukeshoe]

Does being IR dominant mean that you can close the plant foot slightly [discing] more than if you're ER dominant?

 

[scooby snack]

But it just confuses me. Because just a few weeks ago and another time a few months ago I posted footage of my swing in my form review. And you and HUB both said I need to work on having my toe of my foot IN, heel leading when my plant leg comes out of the X step. Which is a form of IR hip mobility. Something I don't have. And you both said that it is causing me a power leak by landing with my foot slightly open, instead of closed or square. But now you're telling me it's alright that Gavin does it, and I should copy him??? I'm confused.

The toe of your foot IN, heel leading when your plant leg comes out of the x-step, is correct.

Calvin and other pros don't always do that. IMO, they are dialing back on their power as opposed to discing down and throwing full power.

 

[SuperWookie]

I get where you're coming from on this....

Just a quick, probably obvious and thus unhelpful, point about this particular issue: have you been able to isolate the correct hip/foot movement from a standstill? I'm 6'5" and also don't have great hip mobility (i'm a wretched dancer). But I've found that if you can isolate from a standstill and then work VERY SLOWLY backward from that, it can help.

Not sure, since there is no 100% correct way to place your foot or hip, so I wouldn't know. That is what is so confusing. I do something, I get told it's wrong. Then I'll see a post days or weeks later in another forum saying it's fine to do the very thing I was told was wrong. Or see a video of a pro doing that thing, and people talking about how great it is. And I do it, and get told it's wrong.

I totally understand that there are tons of different body types and that not every rule or way of learning to do a sports movement is ALWAYS the only way to do it. But when the resident experts on here tell me/us that we are doing something wrong, but then can't tell us HOW to do it right, and then post videos or talk in some other forum about how it IS good/fine to do that very thing I was told was wrong, that's just SUPER frustrating and confusing.

I'm just trying to find out what I/ME need to do in order to throw better now knowing that I'm ER dominant?



You can go look at my form thread if you want to see how it's going. I feel like my standstill has gotten a lot better, and same with my X step. And I also know that I still don't do certain things well, while doing other things very well. But nothing is really changing as far as my distance, accuracy or consistency. I'd say I'm only getting slightly more consistent, but just because I've been playing now for 3 years.

I actually have no problem dancing or moving swiftly with agility for my size or just in general. I may be very tall and weigh more than most, but I've always been agile and light on my feet. And then if you take into account my height and weight, it's much better than most people my size.

I was/am good at almost every single sport I played or play. So not being able to progress in this sport is driving me crazy, haha. It's not like I'm lacking in sports movement understanding. Or am uncoordinated and awkward. I still think the two main things I just can't understand how to do well, in order to throw far, accurately and consistently with a smooth minimal effort is the plant and this idea of being able to SLING the disc out. By holding onto the outside forever and only having the disc come out real late. I just CAN"T get it, and nothing is helping. No matter how many videos I post of my form or drills I try, I can't do those two things. But.... I'll keep trying and hopefully get there someday. Thanks for trying to help :thmbup:

 

[sidewinder22]

Not sure, since there is no 100% correct way to place your foot or hip, so I wouldn't know. That is what is so confusing. I do something, I get told it's wrong. Then I'll see a post days or weeks later in another forum saying it's fine to do the very thing I was told was wrong. Or see a video of a pro doing that thing, and people talking about how great it is. And I do it, and get told it's wrong.

I totally understand that there are tons of different body types and that not every rule or way of learning to do a sports movement is ALWAYS the only way to do it. But when the resident experts on here tell me/us that we are doing something wrong, but then can't tell us HOW to do it right, and then post videos or talk in some other forum about how it IS good/fine to do that very thing I was told was wrong, that's just SUPER frustrating and confusing.

I'm just trying to find out what I/ME need to do in order to throw better now knowing that I'm ER dominant?



You can go look at my form thread if you want to see how it's going. I feel like my standstill has gotten a lot better, and same with my X step. And I also know that I still don't do certain things well, while doing other things very well. But nothing is really changing as far as my distance, accuracy or consistency. I'd say I'm only getting slightly more consistent, but just because I've been playing now for 3 years.

I actually have no problem dancing or moving swiftly with agility for my size or just in general. I may be very tall and weigh more than most, but I've always been agile and light on my feet. And then if you take into account my height and weight, it's much better than most people my size.

I was/am good at almost every single sport I played or play. So not being able to progress in this sport is driving me crazy, haha. It's not like I'm lacking in sports movement understanding. Or am uncoordinated and awkward. I still think the two main things I just can't understand how to do well, in order to throw far, accurately and consistently with a smooth minimal effort is the plant and this idea of being able to SLING the disc out. By holding onto the outside forever and only having the disc come out real late. I just CAN"T get it, and nothing is helping. No matter how many videos I post of my form or drills I try, I can't do those two things. But.... I'll keep trying and hopefully get there someday. Thanks for trying to help :thmbup:

I'd really like to see how you are doing door frame drill. You aren't getting your shoulder pulled taut like One-Arm Olympic Hammer Thrower.

 

[sidewinder22]

I've read this article already.... good stuff. And watched a lot of his videos. But it still doesn't have any info on HOW to practice throwing better once you know if you're IR or ER dominant.

Well, I wish Gavin had some really good footage of lots of throws on YT, but he doesn't. It's very hard to find lots of good slow mo or just regular footage with good angles and good camera work for any of the pros that aren't considered "top tier". But I'll try and see if I can find footage of Gavin.

But it just confuses me. Because just a few weeks ago and another time a few months ago I posted footage of my swing in my form review. And you and HUB both said I need to work on having my toe of my foot IN, heel leading when my plant leg comes out of the X step. Which is a form of IR hip mobility. Something I don't have. And you both said that it is causing me a power leak by landing with my foot slightly open, instead of closed or square. But now you're telling me it's alright that Gavin does it, and I should copy him??? I'm confused.

I'm just lost so often with all this advice sometimes. Myself and a lot of others consider you an expert on the throw. Not just disc golf, but a lot of sports movements. It's very clear you understand the mechanics and movements at a deep level. And we greatly appreciate your time and effort making videos and spending so much time on the forums here trying to help us all! So when you tell me or us something, we/I take it as gospel. Just like with my questions about stomping your plant foot, vs swinging your leg out. So when you told me I shouldn't be throwing with my plant foot slightly open, and now you tell me it's alright, that's contradicting and confusing me.

I know I have more hip retroversion than anteversion, but don't have good hip mobility just in general, and have always had tight hips and certain other parts of my body as well (horrible upper back flexibility as well. Couldn't be a good Olympic lifter or Swimmer if I tried for the rest of my life, haha). While some parts of my body are really flexible. Im 6'8" and have never been that flexible compared to others. Sure, I'm athletic, have good balance, and all this other stuff FOR MY SIZE, but not as good when compared to the general population. Just wish I knew what I needed to do in order to maximize my throw with this new info about being ER dominant. I think I'll message some of those baseball coaches and see if they can offer up any advice or helpful drills. And then I can extrapolate that to disc golf.

Being 6'8" and ER, you should really look more at Big Jerm and Climo. There's been a lot of coverage of Gavin this year but I think he's a bit shorter and pretty flexible and young.

Can you walk down your stairs slightly closed and do you land toes first?

 

[SuperWookie]

I'd really like to see how you are doing door frame drill. You aren't getting your shoulder pulled taut like One-Arm Olympic Hammer Thrower.

Ok, I'll see if there is any door frame or area in my apt or maybe outside, where I can do some door frame drills and film it for you. I'm almost 100% sure I can't do it right, even though I understand it, haha. I definitely don't feel like my shoulder is being pulled taut ever in my back swing.

Also, just watched this amazing video from the same guy, Ben from Tread Athletics, and emailed him about drills and tips on how to throw faster if your ER or IR dominant. So I'll post on here if/when he replies. Fingers crossed.

The video talks about how you can start to see great velocity gains by doing these "Daddy Hack" drills, haha. It's a similar idea as the Hershyser drill, I think. Striding long and not getting onto your plant foot until real late. Letting the momentum and that coiling of the upper body happen, all WHILE your lower body is building speed and momentum down the mound to then unleash your upper body.

Really cool stuff and I'm going to try working on these ideas. I think with the bat in my hands or hand and then so on, it will really help me to FEEL this idea of striding forward, but while keeping my upper body back and centered over my pelvis, feeling he weight more in my glutes than my quads. Which he says then allows you to still have all that energy saved to release when you finally land. Not sure I totally understand it 100% yet, but it's the same as your videos. Their like time bombs, haha. You get it more or less first watch, then understand more and more and more little parts each time there after, haha.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGLzbEMe4qo

 

[sidewinder22]

Ok, I'll see if there is any door frame or area in my apt or maybe outside, where I can do some door frame drills and film it for you. I'm almost 100% sure I can't do it right, even though I understand it, haha. I definitely don't feel like my shoulder is being pulled taut ever in my back swing.

Also, just watched this amazing video from the same guy, Ben from Tread Athletics, and emailed him about drills and tips on how to throw faster if your ER or IR dominant. So I'll post on here if/when he replies. Fingers crossed.

The video talks about how you can start to see great velocity gains by doing these "Daddy Hack" drills, haha. It's a similar idea as the Hershyser drill, I think. Striding long and not getting onto your plant foot until real late. Letting the momentum and that coiling of the upper body happen, all WHILE your lower body is building speed and momentum down the mound to then unleash your upper body.

Really cool stuff and I'm going to try working on these ideas. I think with the bat in my hands or hand and then so on, it will really help me to FEEL this idea of striding forward, but while keeping my upper body back and centered over my pelvis, feeling he weight more in my glutes than my quads. Which he says then allows you to still have all that energy saved to release when you finally land. Not sure I totally understand it 100% yet, but it's the same as your videos. Their like time bombs, haha. You get it more or less first watch, then understand more and more and more little parts each time there after, haha.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGLzbEMe4qo

I also see Kick the Can and Buttwipe drill in that video. I think your main issue is upper body though like I talked about in the Sling Shot Effect video.

 

[seedlings]

Let's say I am ER dominant. What should I keep in mind with my footwork? What might I be trying to do that is counterproductive?

 

[sidewinder22]

Let's say I am ER dominant. What should I keep in mind with my footwork? What might I be trying to do that is counterproductive?

Your feet will be turned further out than normal to be in neutral joint alignment and give you range of motion. You shouldn't feel any pinching or bone hitting bone to try and reach a specific angle or position.

 

[SuperWookie]

I also see Kick the Can and Buttwipe drill in that video. I think your main issue is upper body though like I talked about in the Sling Shot Effect video.

Let's say I am ER dominant. What should I keep in mind with my footwork? What might I be trying to do that is counterproductive?

So the people at Tread Athletics wrote back to me. And they didn't respond with a very good answer at all unfortunately. They just reiterated some basics of what their article we've all read already states, and said to watch this video. And it's the same video about how to determine if your ER or IR dominant :\ I specifically asked them what are some drills, tips and swing thoughts someone could do, IF they are ER or IR dominant and NOTHING. So that was a waste of time.

But the one thing Ben had mentioned in one of his videos was messing around with rear drive leg FOOT starting angles. So meaning, does your rear foot start out 90* parallel to the plate on the rubber? Or slightly open or slightly closed? And it states that usually people that are ER dominant will have better results more often than not (meaning higher velocities on pitches) with a 10-20* closed rear foot. It sets their whole body up to start the pitch in a more closed position, while their body glides down the mound until they plant with a vertical shin.

So translated for us, as disc golfers, that would mean (if your RHBH) you'd turn your left foot more behind you going into the X step, at around 10-20*. As opposed to more neutral left foot angle. So a lot like Simon's X step, where his left foot is turned out quite a bit behind him.

 

[seedlings]

So meaning, does your rear foot start out 90* parallel to the plate on the rubber? Or slightly open or slightly closed?

There is a range of x-step foot position depending on your physiology and mobility. See the range illustrated in the last two steps:

(Taken from https://youtu.be/ay54wHy9ge0)

 

[RFrance]

So translated for us, as disc golfers, that would mean (if your RHBH) you'd turn your left foot more behind you going into the X step, at around 10-20*. As opposed to more neutral left foot angle. So a lot like Simon's X step, where his left foot is turned out quite a bit behind him.

It turns out that I'm also ER so I've been looking at this closely, too. From the above videos it looks like Climo deals with his ER with a little hop and Jerm does like Simon.

 

[sidewinder22]

There is a range of x-step foot position depending on your physiology and mobility. See the range illustrated in the last two steps:

(Taken from https://youtu.be/ay54wHy9ge0)

There's a lot more variability than shown between all steps.

Speed and intended distance(backswing) will also affect angle.

 

[dehaas]

After doing the quick test Tread Athletics had on their site I'm definitely ER.

I run ultramarathons and have had some minor hip and IT band issues in the past…had mostly chalked it up to being quad dominant like most runners are because they don't do enough strength training compared to their high mileage volume.

Doing a bit of looking online it appears as if you have poor internal rotation during a running stride you never really get your glutes activated…which I know I struggle with. Going long enough distances I can start to feel my right leg swinging around the hip joint instead of pushing through it. I'd always thought it was a muscle imbalance issue but in reality it's probably more of a mobility issue.

Time to focus on a better IR range of motion.

 

[FulaFirren]

Well, I wish Gavin had some really good footage of lots of throws on YT, but he doesn't. It's very hard to find lots of good slow mo or just regular footage with good angles and good camera work for any of the pros that aren't considered "top tier". But I'll try and see if I can find footage of Gavin.

Here is 18 shots from gavin in slowmo with a banger soundtrack to boot: https://youtu.be/fC9W4Eux_6g

I just wanna also add to it that there is a lot of convoluted explanations and analysis going around. It reminds me of the quote: "if you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough". People here are trying to understand the throwing mechanics, what actually matters and how to convey the feelings that they have had success with. I'm not gonna pretend that I've figured it all out, but I think your best bet is trying a bunch of different stuff out and see what happens. The advice you're getting is not helping you, whether it's the advice or your interpretation of it doesn't really matter. You're not gonna figure it out this way. Sure, if someone tried something and saw improvements, try it out as well. It might work or it might not. Sometimes what someone else feels like they're doing is not entirely what they're doing, or there is something lost in translation, or what they're doing is actually causing them to do something else right.

Also as a more general thing that I have confidence in saying from my own practice: you will never have success trying to put your body parts in x-y-z positions at times 1-2-3. You have to experiment with different ideas and see what happens to your body positions as a result. I like Mike Malaska's idea of "the brain being a taskmaster". Give it a task and see where your body ends up as a result. Don't try to put your body in positions to fit an idea.

 

[FulaFirren]

There is a range of x-step foot position depending on your physiology and mobility. See the range illustrated in the last two steps:

(Taken from https://youtu.be/ay54wHy9ge0)

Overthrow Discgolf: take bradley walker's already conceptually (at least partially) flawed spin and throw, use a real mic and fancy editing and get money from doing form reviews from comparing pro form to your form and pointing out the differences! yuck.