Discmania splits with Innova

[Horsman]

I've seen you make a couple to references to not liking Lat64 plastic. How come? I have trouble gripping Champion plastic and much prefer Opto due to the grip. While I agree that Champ is more durable than Opto, I feel like Opto is in the same category as Star with regards to durability. Agree or no?

For me, Lat64 plastic is too grippy. I tend to lean towards Innova and discraft for premium plastic because their champ and star plastics aren't overly grippy and I lean towards Innova and Gateway for their mids and putters because they are the only ones that make a baseline plastic that doesn't feel rubbery and grippy.

And then on the durability side, from my own experience and a lot of our customers experiences, Lat64's plastics beat in abnormally quick. Overall its my opinion that the plastic that Lat64 uses is subpar.

 

[biscoe]

It is his sponsors product. Says so right on the bottom, I believe. I can't get on board with that argument if it was fine before. We could split hairs and say that Innova players can't throw something that says Discmania on it, but that's easily remedied.

Have they begun pointing out what it says on the bottom of the disc in their videos? Hell, if i were Innova I never would have let them throw anything but Innova in the first place.

 

[biscoe]

Respectfully disagree. Innova literally made the product. At most, I could see a grace period for players to need to make a switch to a current "branded" product. Demanding that your employees switch equipment the week of Worlds seems like a pretty poor model to me. If anything, I would posit that Discmania has more to lose (business wise) with their team (Eagle/Max) throwing Innova than vice versa. This all could be much ado about nothing, or perhaps I have a bad read on the situation, but for Innova to say that "You can't throw a disc with our name on it." seems hard to believe or rationalize.

What they are allowed to do will be dictated by their contracts. I am told that the standard (all the big guys contracts may be different) Innova contract specifies "discs made by Innova" so I doubt they will force them out of throwing the old DM stuff right now. I would expect the contract to look different next time around though. Also hard to say how long Innova has known this was coming- they certainly didn't find out yesterday.

 

[46YearOldSlinger]

For me, Lat64 plastic is too grippy. I tend to lean towards Innova and discraft for premium plastic because their champ and star plastics aren't overly grippy and I lean towards Innova and Gateway for their mids and putters because they are the only ones that make a baseline plastic that doesn't feel rubbery and grippy.

And then on the durability side, from my own experience and a lot of our customers experiences, Lat64's plastics beat in abnormally quick. Overall its my opinion that the plastic that Lat64 uses is subpar.

Interesting... I never even considered that someone would prefer less grip. I suppose different tools work better for different people.

 

[Horsman]

Interesting... I never even considered that someone would prefer less grip. I suppose different tools work better for different people.

Yea, I think Im part of a small demographic that likes discs to not have grip. For me it just leads to grip lock and then thats even worse in the summer when its hot and muggy. Different strokes for different folks.

 

[biscoe]

I'm a geek for molds and injection molding. I enjoy trying to help everyone get a better understanding of how things like this are made!

Less technical general question- (roughly) how many pieces is one machine capable of producing in an hour?

 

[Muddyboots]

Have they begun pointing out what it says on the bottom of the disc in their videos? Hell, if i were Innova I never would have let them throw anything but Innova in the first place.

There's the rub. I agree with your thought here on the original agreement, and that contracts might be different next go 'round. I wonder if the same might apply to infinite/millenium etc next time, or if Discraft/DGA might be using this as a case study.

 

[biscoe]

Yea, I think Im part of a small demographic that likes discs to not have grip. For me it just leads to grip lock and then thats even worse in the summer when its hot and muggy. Different strokes for different folks.

I am with you to some degree. Too grippy is definitely worse than not grippy enough imo.

 

[jakebake91]

Less technical general question- (roughly) how many pieces is one machine capable of producing in an hour?

Roughly guessing, the cycle times on a disc are probably around the 20 second mark. I'd guess 2-3 discs per minute, depending on how they have the cooling set up.

Trying to find a video that shows more than one disc cycle.

 

[Jolt]

Eagle said in the press conference that he cant throw the new disc at worlds, they have to be approved he said

 

[pjhayes7]

If Discmania own the P2 name and now have split with Innova. . .will Koling be allowed to putt with his P2s?

Well he can use anything he wants. As long as Innova does not care. I mean they technically made the disc and the Firefly and whatever the Infinite version is are the same thing. So maybe he retires the red ones and the next ones he putts with will "be" one of those two when he identifies them, but actually the P2 run. I mean it is not like the underside of the disc says P2.

I hope he's putting Fireflies at Worlds opcorn:

You mean bet he is putting "Fireflys"

 

[Streets]

I mean it is not like the underside of the disc says P2.

Unless he's using a slightly older run of P2...they probably are indeed embossed "P2," just like Fireflies and Alpacas.

 

[Rastnav]

Eagle said in the press conference that he cant throw the new disc at worlds, they have to be approved he said

And herein you have the fingerprints of a company that's willing to take a few (probably small) risks for great marketing. I assume some conversations have occurred beforehand, but DM is about to sell discs that they currently have in stock which are (apparently) not PDGA approved yet.

I highly doubt (something of a mild understatement, there) that anything at all about the discs themselves that would prevent approval. The one thing I wonder about is the fact that they are calling this disc the P2, and the PDGA requires discs names to be unique. I wouldn't be surprised at all if the name as approved was something like "Original P2".

Has a named disc ever gone through a transition like this before? And what precisely governs whether the PDGA would need to approve a disc again? If a manufacturers's original design specs were somehow inadequate to making a new mold in today's modern world, or even lost,, would the new design specs of the mold require reapproval? What about adding new molds to increase production capacity?

All "angels on the head of pin" type questions, for sure, but I'm curious.

 

[pjhayes7]

Unless he's using a slightly older run of P2...they probably are indeed embossed "P2," just like Fireflies and Alpacas.

Oh yeah, I forgot about the embossing. But In reality, no one is going to look. Innova probably told the players, just wipe the stamp and dye it something else and we don't care. He can identify it as a Firefly and what is the difference? We will be none the wiser, even if we suspect they might actually be leftover P2s.

 

[Rastnav]

You mean bet he is putting "Fireflys"

You probably insist on the Oxford Comma, too, don't you?

 

[pjhayes7]

You probably insist on the Oxford Comma, too, don't you?

You damn right I do. I will die on that hill; don't get me started.

 

[Rastnav]

Oh yeah, I forgot about the embossing. But In reality, no one is going to look. Innova probably told the players, just wipe the stamp and dye it something else and we don't care. He can identify it as a Firefly and what is the difference? We will be none the wiser, even if we suspect they might actually be leftover P2s.

In ball golf, that kind of thing would actually cost you strokes at the pro-tour level. Different animal, etc. but they know how to protect their marketing dollars.

 

[pjhayes7]

Eagle said in the press conference that he cant throw the new disc at worlds, they have to be approved he said

The thing i think is stupid, is not getting these approved enough ahead of time so that the DM guys could use the new P2s. I mean at this point if Eagle wins using the OG it is not terrible, but think about the marketing win for DM if he won his first Worlds with the new ones.

 

[Streets]

Oh yeah, I forgot about the embossing. But In reality, no one is going to look. Innova probably told the players, just wipe the stamp and dye it something else and we don't care. He can identify it as a Firefly and what is the difference? We will be none the wiser, even if we suspect they might actually be leftover P2s.

I agree with the nobody is going to look part...but I don't think Innova is quite that cavalier lol.

The thing i think is stupid, is not getting these approved enough ahead of time so that the DM guys could use the new P2s. I mean at this point if Eagle wins using the OG it is not terrible, but think about the marketing win for DM if he won his first Worlds with the new ones.

It will kind of be like a newly, Prodigy-sponsored Will Schusterick winning the Memorial with a Glow Firebird. Not a good look.

 

[pjhayes7]

In ball golf, that kind of thing would actually cost you strokes at the pro-tour level. Different animal, etc. but they know how to protect their marketing dollars.

How do you mean? It is a know fact that Tiger used clubs forged in Japan (can't remember the specific company at the moment) and branded Nike when he first switched to Nike.

He never lost strokes for that. As long as the equipment is approved and within specs, you can use anything you want branded anything you want. Of course your sponsor would drop or fine you, but that is different.

In this case, Jerm putts with blank discs with his personal stamp on it. For all i know, they are actually Lunas. They are whatever he identifies them as when it comes to marketing.