[Recommend] Saphire 150 class - too much LSS?

[Rastnav]

I've been really liking throwing my 150 class gold line Saphire, here lately. Just the right amount of HSS for my ~noodle arm so that I can put it flat and it will barely turn over and hold it for what are max distances for me. In an open field I'm probably hitting 270 to 300 regularly, with a max throw of around 330.

The issue comes at the end, where the sneaky amount of LSS in the disc kicks in and it consistently flares and dumps at the end. It's a fairly ignominious end to what until then will look like a beautiful flight, and it's not the kind of end to a shot that I'm ideally looking for. I want something that will finish straighter, but that I can still release fairly flat, without having to hyzer flip it, so that I can throw straighter lines in the woods.

So what suggestions do you have? At speed 10, I think it's at the very end of my possible speed ratings. 150 class availability would be nice, especially if it's a speed 10 disc. The other discs I throw are all somewhere around 170g.

 

[jakebake91]

Upper 150's axiom insanity.

I have a 156(?) neutron one and it's my go-to straight disc. I only throw them 300-330'ish for reference. Also surprisingly wind resistant (comparatively) for a light weight and understable mold.

 

[Riverdog]

Love my Gold Sapphires as well. Using them on low flat lines that doesn't allow a dump a the end of flight. Old guy, less than 300 footer here. Can get some impressive skips on that line. [emoji106][emoji41]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[ray1970]

Look hard at some of the speed 9 stuff. There are a ton of options out there.

As much as you like your light Sapphires I would almost bet you could get as much or more distance (and get the type of flight you're looking for) out of a 170ish Escape. Released flat on a roughly 275-300' throw it will probably be fairly straight and have a mild, forward type fade.

I have a couple of Insanity's as mentioned above but they are definitely not a straight flying disc and need quite a bit of left and right space if thrown flat. They do bomb if you have room to let them do their thing.

Also, I found the Beast to be fairly comparable to the Sapphire so might be worth checking out.

Don't be afraid to try some heavier weights. Sometimes that late "dump" you're getting might be the light disc just running out of steam at the end of the flight.

 

[Twmccoy]

I'm surprised you're getting any turn on a Sapphire at 300'. I've thrown 3 different Sapphires, all 157g. They take a surprising amount of arm, and are a little beefier than anyone would think. They'll easily go 400'+ without getting flippy.

I also don't think the Sapphire has a very dumpy late fade.

 

[Monocacy]

Upper 150's axiom insanity.

I have a 156(?) neutron one and it's my go-to straight disc. I only throw them 300-330'ish for reference. Also surprisingly wind resistant (comparatively) for a light weight and understable mold.

Insanity is an excellent suggestion. I prefer Plasma Insanity around 157, which is a little more understable, but diff'rent strokes. I can often get Insanity out as far as my distance drivers, and it is great for working lines in the woods.

FWIW for distance drivers I pair a 157ish GL Sapphire with a 157ish Neutron Wave. The Wave is straighter and, oddly, has less fade vs. the Sapphire. I only throw the Sapphire if I need the finishing fade.

If you play mostly in the woods, fairway drivers are your friends when a mid won't get the job done.

 

[Keller]

If you're an under 300ft thrower, a Sapphire is not your disc.

A low 160's DX Teebird can do that with ease and with much more control. Or even a Jade.

I'm not being a d!ck here, I'm 60, have played the high speed game with all the promised distance advantage for noodle arms and was always left frustrated. My distance didn't change until I changed. I throw farther now than I did 9 years ago and my fastest disc is a 163gr Valkyrie.

Cheap noodle arm distance discs are a marketing ploy, stop drinking the kool-aid and work a little on your form, It's much more satisfying.

 

[Rastnav]

If you're an under 300ft thrower, a Sapphire is not your disc.

A low 160's DX Teebird can do that with ease and with much more control. Or even a Jade.

I'm not being a d!ck here, I'm 60, have played the high speed game with all the promised distance advantage for noodle arms and was always left frustrated. My distance didn't change until I changed. I throw farther now than I did 9 years ago and my fastest disc is a 163gr Valkyrie.

Cheap noodle arm distance discs are a marketing ploy, stop drinking the kool-aid and work a little on your form, It's much more satisfying.

a) I don't have any high speed drivers in the bag, and I'm perfectly happy to throw fairway drivers and putters. The Saphire is currently in the bag simply because, I'm better at hitting the lines and angles I need with it. I've experimented with many different fairway drivers to get distance without losing control.

b) The Jade I have doesn't like to be thrown flat, as it really lives up to its turn number. But, uh, that's also a "cheap noodle arm distance disc". It's part of the exact same line of discs.

c) Who says I don't work on my form? Field work, video, video review, paying for lessons, these are all things I do.

d) I'm not on your lawn.

 

[Rastnav]

Insanity is an excellent suggestion. I prefer Plasma Insanity around 157, which is a little more understable, but diff'rent strokes. I can often get Insanity out as far as my distance drivers, and it is great for working lines in the woods.

FWIW for distance drivers I pair a 157ish GL Sapphire with a 157ish Neutron Wave. The Wave is straighter and, oddly, has less fade vs. the Sapphire. I only throw the Sapphire if I need the finishing fade.

If you play mostly in the woods, fairway drivers are your friends when a mid won't get the job done.

Multiple votes for Insanity. It's a madhouse I tell you. Sounds like a should see if I can get my hands on one.

I actually just traded away a Wave, although it was a 170+ gram one. I thought it was too much rim for me, but maybe in a lighter weight it wouldn't be.

I'm in NC, so woods golf is 95% of what I have available. I find that more and more I lean on putters instead of mids (well, depending on what you call a Zone, which is 90% a forehand disc for me). I just don't seem to see much difference in distance between them, and I'm much more consistent with throwing a putter. But for so many holes that means conceding that you won't get a birdie look. Chicks dig the long ball, or something.

 

[Rastnav]

I'm surprised you're getting any turn on a Sapphire at 300'. I've thrown 3 different Sapphires, all 157g. They take a surprising amount of arm, and are a little beefier than anyone would think. They'll easily go 400'+ without getting flippy.

I also don't think the Sapphire has a very dumpy late fade.

It could be that I'm actually throwing it on a very slight anny when I'm trying to get it flat. I'm not really working a line or an S-curve. Just trying to get it push fairly straight.

I'm surprised you don't find that the Saphire has a hard late fade. Maybe that's just a difference between spin rates or something. I definitely don't have 400 feet of power.

 

[Keller]

^ Sorry. Again, I wasn't trying to be a jerk. But I guess you only hear what you want. So Sapphire away and have fun doing you.

 

[Rastnav]

Look hard at some of the speed 9 stuff. There are a ton of options out there.

As much as you like your light Sapphires I would almost bet you could get as much or more distance (and get the type of flight you're looking for) out of a 170ish Escape. Released flat on a roughly 275-300' throw it will probably be fairly straight and have a mild, forward type fade.

I have a couple of Insanity's as mentioned above but they are definitely not a straight flying disc and need quite a bit of left and right space if thrown flat. They do bomb if you have room to let them do their thing.

Also, I found the Beast to be fairly comparable to the Sapphire so might be worth checking out.

Don't be afraid to try some heavier weights. Sometimes that late "dump" you're getting might be the light disc just running out of steam at the end of the flight.

I have no "fear" of throwing heavier weights, as I said most of the other stuff I throw is around 170g, plus or minus a few grams.

I am curious if the idea of lighter discs ending up with more pronounced end of flight fade is something anyone else can cooberate? I hadn't heard of that before, but it makes a sort of intuitive sense, especially if the wind was right.

 

[Rastnav]

^ Sorry. Again, I wasn't trying to be a jerk. But I guess you only hear what you want. So Sapphire away and have fun doing you.

Usually I find that when I'm about to use the phrase "I'm not trying to be a jerk", it's a pretty good indication that I might want to re-word things.

Note that this entire thread is dedicated to me finding something else to try. I have no qualms about discing down. I'm not married to any particular speed of disc.

 

[seedlings]

Is there any sharp flashing on the bottom of the wing? Sand off any sharp edge, and you're good. Had that on Trespasses, Fuse, Ballista Pro. Worth a look.

Another thought - Throwing a little nose-up will cause that with any disc.

 

[GoobyPls]

Sapphire bagger here, former Insanity thrower. What you're experiencing is very normal for discs with a wing that wide and with that level of stability, particularly if you don't get much turn out of it. Generally what's happening WRT late flares is that the disc is hitting the ground with spin still on it. Unless the grass is long, that results in skips.

If this is a problem for you, then you have a couple of options.

1. You can try a flippier Sapphire, or beat a current one in. More high-speed turn means more time for the disc to lose spin, which means smaller skips. The drawback is that you need more control and often more room on the fairway to pull this off.

2. You can try a flippier mold. Sapphires are fairly stable considering they're marketed as "easy-to-throw," and with your power (which sounds similar to mine) it can be tough to turn them over, especially fresh ones. Something like a lightweight Insanity, Heat, Roadrunner, etc. might work better, and will fade and skip less, but you will need to focus on your release angles to get the same control and flight you get from a Sapphire.

3. You can try a slower driver. This is the most common answer you'll hear from the form nuts. Slower molds are easier to control, and since the wings are smaller they naturally want to skip less. The downside is you're looking at decreased max distance, and slower discs don't do well with low ceilings. That may not be an option on some of those holes in NC.

Ultimately you have several ways to get what you want here.

 

[Rastnav]

Sapphire bagger here, former Insanity thrower. What you're experiencing is very normal for discs with a wing that wide and with that level of stability, particularly if you don't get much turn out of it. Generally what's happening WRT late flares is that the disc is hitting the ground with spin still on it. Unless the grass is long, that results in skips.

If this is a problem for you, then you have a couple of options.

1. You can try a flippier Sapphire, or beat a current one in. More high-speed turn means more time for the disc to lose spin, which means smaller skips. The drawback is that you need more control and often more room on the fairway to pull this off.

2. You can try a flippier mold. Sapphires are fairly stable considering they're marketed as "easy-to-throw," and with your power (which sounds similar to mine) it can be tough to turn them over, especially fresh ones. Something like a lightweight Insanity, Heat, Roadrunner, etc. might work better, and will fade and skip less, but you will need to focus on your release angles to get the same control and flight you get from a Sapphire.

3. You can try a slower driver. This is the most common answer you'll hear from the form nuts. Slower molds are easier to control, and since the wings are smaller they naturally want to skip less. The downside is you're looking at decreased max distance, and slower discs don't do well with low ceilings. That may not be an option on some of those holes in NC.

Ultimately you have several ways to get what you want here.

Skip isn't the issue. It doesn't come into the ground at an angle that allows it to skip. I'm also not really looking for more turn.

The flight pattern of the Saphire, for me on my better throws, is that it pretty much holds its angle, if I throw it flat or slightly anny, and it keeps holding it pretty much out to its full distance. At that point it very rapidly hyzers out. It flares, may lift a little, and then dumps into the ground without much speed at all, but coming in steeply. It probably finishes 30 or 40 feet left of where it started losing speed, not having gained much more distance.

I'm just looking for something that won't dump so much at the end, and will finish flatter and straighter.

I did order an Insanity last night. It'll be fun to try out even if it's not the right disc. I also pulled out a Prime Escape that I think I got in a starter pack. I did a bunch of field work today and that actually might be something I end up trying out in the bag for a while. Something about the way base plastic feels in anything other than a putter makes me itch though.

 

[autocrosscrx]

I know that Keller came in pretty hot, but... the DX Teebird is fantastic.

If you haven't messed with a DX Teebird, it will probably give you very similar distance with a straighter finish. I really like them around 166-167g's.

 

[ray1970]

You'll have to let us know what you think of the Insanity.

You said you don't want much more turn than the Sapphire but my experience with both discs is that my max weight Insanity's have noticeably more turn than any of my light Sapphires.

 

[Twmccoy]

Anyone who wants an "easier to throw" Sapphire should just go get a Discmania Essence. Very similar disc, but the Essence turns easier, is very floaty, and doesn't have much late fade.

The Sapphire isn't that easy to throw. If you don't hit it hard enough the disc won't turn, and dies out quickly.

I keep seeing the Insanity mentioned. It's an OK disc. It'll turn easier than a Sapphire, but doesn't glide as well. It also has a dumpier fade. Insanity works well for 350'ish drives when you don't want to put 100% power into your throw.

 

[HyooMac]

The Sapphire isn't that easy to throw. If you don't hit it hard enough the disc won't turn, and dies out quickly.

Agreed. I tried a few 150 class Sapphires in various plastics, even knowing I don't have a 10 speed arm (that damned "easy to throw" hooked me again!).


This thread reminded me that I have a hardly-thrown Lucid Air Escape in my collection - so I took it out to the field yesterday. Although I was successfully throwing it flat, I'm still seeing a hard dump at the end - like it just runs out of gas.


I can throw 8 speeds flat and get them to turn (Breakouts, Jackalopes). I keep reminding myself to work on throwing those guys farther, rather than seeking out "magic" 9's, 10's, 12's...(Hatchets, Heats, Terns, Sidewinders, Virus, Falk, D4, D6, CD, Saint, Culverin, Freetail....)