[Mids] Are overstable mids pointless?

[discspeed]

In the last 10 years I've been playing I have came to the conclusion again and again that overstable mids are rather pointless. Now, I'm not talking about a disc that can execute flat mid shots in the wind like a new Roc or other flat to fade type disc. I'm referring to Drones, Demons, Gators, etc...Discs that more or less have a + HSS and a blunt edge. I've cycled them in and out of my bag over the years, but never find any use for them that my Banshee/Pred/Firebird/XXX, etc, couldn't do better.

One of the biggest reasons I came to this conclusion was that just about every overstable mid has failed miserably for me in strong wind where the drivers I mentioned above thrive. No matter how overstable a blunt mid is in calm conditions, all of those blunt edges (and large diameter in the case of some) seem to catch wind and make the disc get knocked around. They are more likely to get a quick lift, or slammed to the ground, straighten out, or turnover than a true overstable utility driver. When it is calm, you should be able to throw your stable mid with hyzer to achieve any degree of overstable turn you need.

The only exception I've seen is people with really, really big arms. JohnE McCray has always thrown Demons because he likes to throw really hard even on 300ish holes...but he has 500'+ of power. Even so, as he ages I notice that he is using drivers or stable mids more where he used to throw Demons.

I noticed by reading some of the "rate my bag" threads here that an overstable mid seems to be one of the slots here deemed necessary and I was just wondering what the argument is for this other than it just seems to make sense in theory to carry as many stabilities at each speed as possible.

 

[zenbot]

My reasons for using the Gator were best said on DGR (when they actually used to review discs/update their site).

The best way I can explain it is like this: I try to imagine throwing a ball, or rock, or something with no glide, toward the basket. To me, a midrange with a lot of glide will tend to carry too far beyond the basket, and will probably skip 10-20 feet past where it initally hits the ground. I just throw the gator exactly how hard I think I should throw a ball, and the distance is almost always perfect.

At that point it digs into the ground and stays put.

 

[Technohic]

Personally, I prefer a Banshee, but I dont know that I have come to the conclusion of the blunt edge you have. Its just if I can accomplish something with less discs hanging on my shoulder, than I am happier.

 

[discspeed]

My reasons for using the Gator were best said on DGR (when they actually used to review discs/update their site).



At that point it digs into the ground and stays put.

When a disc is overstable, it is pulling left while it still has a good bit of speed. In my experience, this does not often lead to a disc hitting the ground and staying put due to the fact that it has to be thrown harder to go a particular distance and still has more momentum when hitting the ground than other discs. I agree overstable mids do not skip as much as drivers, but they still skip. Why I like discs like the XXX is that they seem to skip more consistently and predictably than overstable mids.

 

[Beable]

I've been carrying a Wasp, but I'd rather find a smaller diameter overstable fairway driver that can do double duty as both a forehand disc and headwind driver. I have a Firebird, but I want something slower. If I find one that I'm happy with, I will probably bench the Wasp.

 

[discspeed]

I've been carrying a Wasp, but I'd rather find a smaller diameter overstable fairway driver that can do double duty as both a forehand disc and headwind driver. I have a Firebird, but I want something slower. If I find one that I'm happy with, I will probably bench the Wasp.

Just for clarification, the Wasp doesn't qualify as one of the discs in question as even when new it is a "straight-then-fade" disc rather than one that is overstable through its whole flight if not thrown with anny.

 

[giles]

I allways thought so and just used a firebird. I put a gator in my bag a few weeks ago and it has been the first disc to lower my scores in a long time.

 

[Waddly Hobbins]

In my opinion (as novice as it might be), while you can achieve some of the similar effects with an overstable driver, using an overstable mid just makes executing that desired shot that much easier.

Think of it this way, I come up to a hole that I deem necessary to use an overstable mid, whether it be because of wind or extreme hyzer shot. I can either full throw my overstable mid or underthrow my driver. Throwing a disc at its intended speed is more predictable in my opinion. I find it much easier to over or under throw a driver on a shot that calls for a mid. I carry both a Drone and a Pred, while on some holes I could easily swap them out, knowing the flight of my Drone, there are holes that still qualify its spot in my bag.

If you are trying to reduce molds, sure an overstable mid may be the first to go. I figure though, if you have the room for it in the bag, might as well take it along.

 

[bcr123psu]

I count on my Gator pretty frequently to bend around trees and other obstacles and then just drop. With more glide, a Roc or a Buzzz can't do that quite as well.

 

[zenbot]

When a disc is overstable, it is pulling left while it still has a good bit of speed. In my experience, this does not often lead to a disc hitting the ground and staying put due to the fact that it has to be thrown harder to go a particular distance and still has more momentum when hitting the ground than other discs. I agree overstable mids do not skip as much as drivers, but they still skip. Why I like discs like the XXX is that they seem to skip more consistently and predictably than overstable mids.

My Gator, when thrown flat, will impact at around a 45 degree angle. I get very little skip if any. Less so if I take a high route.

If I wanted a predictable skip I would definitely go with a driver. I use a Firebird.

 

[toothyfish]

Used to carry a Drone, but I stopped carrying a true overstable mid. The Whippet is somewhere in between mid and fairway driver IMO. I can control it for lower speed mid duty, yet still crank it up for shorter fairway work. So far, using a Predator or equivalent at midrange distance hasn't worked great for me (though I haven't spent alot of time trying, either), but I do intend to give it some more practice this year.

 

[Beable]

Just for clarification, the Wasp doesn't qualify as one of the discs in question as even when new it is a "straight-then-fade" disc rather than one that is overstable through its whole flight if not thrown with anny.

Ah, OK. It's certainly the most overstable disc I usually carry, though. I have not felt the need for a meathook midrange.

It could definitely be my inexperience, but do you guys find that you need something crazy overstable often? What range do you need it in? For under 180' or so, I'll throw my Buzzz or Wizard and it does it well enough for me and will hold decent curves from both forehand and backhand. These are Ultimate type throws for me, since that's what I'm used to.

 

[Three Putt]

Around '99 I got a shipment of discs with 10 brand new proto Gators. As was the custom back then, they came with no announcement and/or information as to what they were supposed to do, so I headed out to the field to let 'er rip. My first throw hooked hard out of my hand and the disc landed short and waaayyy left, at which point I though "what in the Hell is the point of that?"

That is still pretty much my opinion of meathook mids. I just don't get it.

I have always assumed they were designed for power players and were being misused by most players who were using them for some shot that must not come up for me, because I truly am never thinking "I want it short and waaayyy over there." All I'm looking for out of my most overstable mid is a disc I can drive into a moderate headwind and not worry about flipping it.

 

[sdervan]

i agree with you. there really is no point at all for these.

 

[zenbot]

I'm curious about the terrain the gator hators play on. My home course has a lot of elevation change, much of it drastic, and a lot of wind.

 

[discspeed]

I can either full throw my overstable mid or underthrow my driver. Throwing a disc at its intended speed is more predictable in my opinion. I find it much easier to over or under throw a driver on a shot that calls for a mid. I carry both a Drone and a Pred, while on some holes I could easily swap them out, knowing the flight of my Drone, there are holes that still qualify its spot in my bag.

I could see the Predator needing to have a little speed taken off it for some of these cases. A XXX, good Firebird, Banshee, Whippet, etc. don't have these issues as they are so overstable that you always have to give them a little pop no matter the distance. The power at which I get my XXX over 300' would result in a 400'+ shot with all my other drivers, so I rarely feel like I'm powering down.

I also should point out that I've been playing a long time and that probably makes me more comfortable doing some of these things. I did find a little more of a use for overstable mids before I was as comfortable with my putter as I am now. I'm not trying to make newer players feel dumb for using an overstable mid if it serves a purpose for them, I'm just questioning the real need for them in the long run. I also believe in minimalism though, especially for newer players, and I think an overstable mid might hinder learning of different throwing angles.

 

[Beable]

I play on courses that are chock full of Appalachian beauty, but not much wind, zen.

 

[Beable]

I could see the Predator needing to have a little speed taken off it for some of these cases. A XXX, good Firebird, Banshee, Whippet, etc. don't have these issues as they are so overstable that you always have to give them a little pop no matter the distance. The power at which I get my XXX over 300' would result in a 400'+ shot with all my other drivers, so I rarely feel like I'm powering down.

I also should point out that I've been playing a long time and that probably makes me more comfortable doing some of these things. I did find a little more of a use for overstable mids before I was as comfortable with my putter as I am now. I'm not trying to make newer players feel dumb for using an overstable mid if it serves a purpose for them, I'm just questioning the real need for them in the long run. I also believe in minimalism though, especially for newer players, and I think an overstable mid might hinder learning of different throwing angles.

I welcome the discussion, because this is something that I often have wondered about. In general, the specialty mids that I carry...I use as slow drivers more than anything mid-like. I will throw my Meteor off the tee more than for an approach. Almost all of my approaches are Buzzz or Wizard (might try one of those Ions people are raving about). I often find myself wondering if I play too much like an Ultimate player, and if I'm ignoring aspects of golf that I should be actively developing.

If I'm in the woods, and the tee is 200' away...I'm going to be looking for ways I can stand to get the disc in an advantageous spot, not searching for a different stability that will get around trees: low release or high release forehand or backhand, or a scoober, or a hammer, or a hyzer from either side, stretching or not, etc. But I pretty much do all this with one or two types of discs that are pretty neutral in terms of stability. Is this wrong?

 

[Frank Delicious]

I play in a lot of tightly wooded courses and wind doesn't come into play very often for me. Elevation changes exist and come into play for a number of holes around here. I have never found an overstable mid that useful, even when I travel and play open, windy courses. I've always used an overstable driver for those shots, first it was a CE firebird, then a Spirit, then a FLX pred, then a Spirit again and now it is an XXX or Pred.

I do know people who put overstable mids to good use though, a pro around here flicks gators so well it makes me cry a little and another uses a very effective combo the the cro and gator as his main mids. Now that I think about it, this also goes to show that it doesn't necessarily matter what type of course you play on, it is your throw and approach to the game that dictates which discs work for you.

 

[what'shisname]

I did find a little more of a use for overstable mids before I was as comfortable with my putter as I am now.

In a strong wind I'll always reach for my Drone over my VP or Voodoo for approach shots. I find that my putters are the most susceptible to being tossed around by wind.

My first experience with an overstable mid was the Drone and I just picked it up for the first time last year. I love having it in my bag for those few situations that call for it.