An Open Letter to Three Putt/Garubladder

[optidiscic]

Regarding plastics cooling.....the faster a plastic cools the harder it will be? and do certain colors cause the plastics to cool at different rates?

 

[garublador]

Opti,
I think you're right. My understanding is that a forehand creates more spin, not less. Garubladder? Treeput?

I don't know. I don't know of an instance where it's been measured. My best guess is that forehand shots tend to turn over more because people have more OAT in their forehand throws.

IMO, this is the most important quote of the thread so far:

Finally, be careful of material you see on the forums, much of it contains significant conceptual errors, and as the discussion evolves some of the information could easily be taken out of context.

 

[optidiscic]

It would be more correct to say that more overstable discs mask the forehand throwers inability to generate proper spin on a disc.

Shallow or deep rim is subjective to what's comfortable to the thrower.

according to what you are saying more stable discs are easier to spin or are you saying something else..I'm either lost or don't agree.

 

[sidewinder22]

It would be more correct to say that more overstable discs mask the forehand throwers inability to generate proper spin on a disc.

Shallow or deep rim is subjective to what's comfortable to the thrower.

I agree. Typically a disc thrown the same distance FH or BH, will have more spin BH, but it really depends on how they are thrown. BH has more spin potential. FH is easier to get leverage on, as well as oat.

I think opti is confusing shallow with narrow. Shallow means how deep or high the rim. Narrow refers to rim width. I agree with narrow overstable discs being easier to spin.

 

[grodney]

Not that my chiming in matters, but:
- More spin does NOT make a RHBH turn over more.
- For MOST (almost all) throwers, FH produces a higher speed:spin ratio. That is, more speed FH, more spin BH.
- Both of these points are VERY commonly reversed among players, and have been that way for years and years.

 

[grodney]

VictorB, a question for you.

You know those marketing terms that Innova has: Speed, Turn, Fade, Glide? Let's talk about "Turn" and "Fade".

Given two discs, is it possible for one to BOTH "Turn" more, and "Fade" more? With the important assumption that everything else between the discs is equal (speed, spin, angle, etc.).

If so, what physical characteristics could/would cause such a difference?

 

[optidiscic]

I refuse to believe that speed of the disc and notspin is responsible for high speed turn. If you take the spin factor out then you are left with solely flightspeed of the disc. I would like someone in this camp to explain these to me in a way we can all understand.
-longer flying discs perform their turn later in the flight when the disc is actually traveling slower than when initially thrown.
-air would move at the same rate past a disc if there was no spin....how would the anhyzer angle be achieved if there is no difference in air pressures/lift?
-According to your speed theory an airplane would turn to the right as would any object moving at high velocity.

I think the misconception is that a tight fast spinning throw will enable a disc to fight fade and appear to be going straighter....perhaps these throws are employing a very stable disc or the thrower is employing some OAT. (hyzer release)

 

[optidiscic]

I agree. Typically a disc thrown the same distance FH or BH, will have more spin BH, but it really depends on how they are thrown. BH has more spin potential. FH is easier to get leverage on, as well as oat.

I think opti is confusing shallow with narrow. Shallow means how deep or high the rim. Narrow refers to rim width. I agree with narrow overstable discs being easier to spin.

yeah I meant narrow rim:doh:

 

[Olorin]

Not that my chiming in matters, but:
- More spin does NOT make a RHBH turn over more.
- For MOST (almost all) throwers, FH produces a higher speed:spin ratio. That is, more speed FH, more spin BH.
- Both of these points are VERY commonly reversed among players, and have been that way for years and years.

Rodney,

I'm glad you chimed in. I respect your knowledge and experience. Now I don't know what's correct. I'm not saying you're wrong, but can you cite any external evidence to support the claims of your first 2 points? And with all due respect how can I know that you aren't the one who has gotten the points reversed? As for me, I'm rather befuddled about these points at the moment.

I'm not debating; I'm only trying to get at the truth. Garublender made the best point that this is the internet and there's tons of misinformation in forums, so I just like to see claims backed up with something more factual than mere statements. e.g.- If you could point to a Wikipedia article that would definitely prove your point.

 

[optidiscic]

I'm still waiting for something that makes sense but all I'm getting is jargon in regards to why spin does not affect turn.

I would like to hear more about these:
the bead
the beveled edge
the groove on the groove and monarch
gimicks on more obscure discs
colors and why different runs perform differently (ive heaerd tie dye champion is by far the hardest and fastest)
why do some flat tops perform so stable...zone?

 

[VictorB]

I'm still waiting for something that makes sense but all I'm getting is jargon in regards to why spin does not affect turn.

I would like to hear more about these:
the bead
the beveled edge
the groove on the groove and monarch
gimicks on more obscure discs
colors and why different runs perform differently (ive heaerd tie dye champion is by far the hardest and fastest)
why do some flat tops perform so stable...zone?

I think I've explained about as much as I can without getting too in depth here.

I'll reference you back over to one of the other disc physics threads, either here or the one on DGR.

 

[Lithicon]

I'm still waiting for something that makes sense but all I'm getting is jargon in regards to why spin does not affect turn.

When you ask on a forum about physics of flight you're going to get physics jargon. Unless you're wanting a mathematical lay out of why each disc varies in flight. If you are, I highly doubt anyone here will break it down that far, so I don't know what else you could really want, these relative explanations/jargon is all there is to give.

 

[optidiscic]

My point wasn't about jargon. My point was to move away from the turn spin debate Poor choice of words wasn't trying to incite.

 

[Lithicon]

Angular velocity [av] (spin imparted on a disc at release) is the what keeps a disc "holding a line" - whether that be hyzer, straight, or turnover. Moment of inertia [mi] determines the force that is needed to get a disc spinning.

Directional velocity [dv] is the forward speed of a disc. Each disc requires a certain directional velocity to fly properly. If the dv:av ratio is very high, the disc will act understable. if the dv:av ratio is low, the disc will act more overstable than it really is.

Lift is the force generated by air passing faster over the flight plate when compared to the under side of the disc. The differences in air speed passing the disc cause a slight difference in air pressure - with the higher pressures being applied to the underside of the disc - creating a slight upward force that works against gravity. This is also known (somewhat incorrectly) as glide.

Stability is a rating based on the ability for a disc to keep it's center of pressure (where the lift force is applied to the disc) close to the true center of the flight plate. Overstable discs tend to have a center of pressure on the on the right side that the disc, thus the disc wants to lift it's wing on the right side (RHBH throwers). The opposite is true for understable discs, but given enough time in the air, the center of pressure will move back to the right side of the disc, causing the right wing to lift. (see JHern's thread on dgr for an illustrative reference) Stable discs tend to balance the center of pressure better than the other two categories, and therefore fly on truer lines than the other two.

Opti,
I think you're right. My understanding is that a forehand creates more spin, not less. Garubladder? Treeput?

From my understanding, Forehand does have a higher POTENTIAL for leverage on the disc, but is often over shadowed by the inability of most players to create the proper leverage to create spin, thus most strong arm creating more speed. Put that in physic's speak, and you have less AV/more DV.
Not to mention as Garu explained, the OAT potential is much greater in Forehand throwers, so it's a bit hard to use this as some definitive proof. Take this case below, what I said above is essentially what he said.

Not that my chiming in matters, but:
- More spin does NOT make a RHBH turn over more.
- For MOST (almost all) throwers, FH produces a higher speed:spin ratio. That is, more speed FH, more spin BH.
- Both of these points are VERY commonly reversed among players, and have been that way for years and years.

Now, according to Victor's description I've put on what I'll consider one of the most inconclusive experiments you could attempt, lol. I'm not by any means sharing this as indisputable proof, to argue, or to prove anything. JUST FOR MERE OBSERVATIONS, which were highly inconclusive.

I took three disc, semi over to stable DX, over stable Champion, and an under stable DX. The actual mold isn't important, but trust me when I say they're what they say they are.
I balanced them best I could on a needle point, so that it could float on whichever axis it chose once it began moving. But, I started them spinning and made sure they were as close to the true flat axis as I could.
(Just to note, I had no way of measuring th RPM, so no I don't know any were at a constant, or same rpm through this. So just adds to the inconclusiveness.)
Then I applied air pressure to the front of all three disc equally and directly across the front (nose) of the disc, all three tried to great lift and went a nose down and came off the needle point.
Then as if the disc was flying toward me, I applied air pressure to the left and right side as equally as possible.

With ALL THREE disc as if flying toward me, (applying air pressure away from me toward the disc)
Applying air to the right side of the disc, the nose would go down, and the disc would lean to the left. (overstable) RHBH
Applying air to the left side of the disc, the nose would go down and the disc would lean to the right. (Understable) RHBH

I Personally done this for ****s and giggles, but my opinion on the way stability is affected..

(Would like to note this is also rather vague, and of course lacks some sort of mathematical details as I'm sure that would be hard for even scientist to measure ratio's needed for said desired effects listed below.)

The way victor describes it vaguely(and is by no means a bad thing) but, he describes AV(spin), and DV(speed). Spin and speed, when spin is kept constant, and speed is kept constant (at a given ratio) The disc will fly true and "stable". Given a proper AOA, (angle of attack) which I'm concluding to some degree of nose down, but that's relative to height as far as I can conclude.
Now, with the same Aoa, and the same DV as the first example, but less AV, the disc will act less stable, and tilt to the right, RHBH. This creates less air pressure on the right side of the disc, making the disc pull to the area with less air pressure. Thus turning the disc right.

Same, Aoa, less DV, but the same AV as the first the disc will remain stable on it's given axis, due to the AV. Until the av begins to slow down with the DV, the disc will change slightly in it's Aoa, and the disc is then forced to slow further creating less air pressure on the left side, pulling the disc to the left.

Now, this all happens because the disc is spinning though.
Optic gives an example of an airplane accelerated at a certain speed would try to turn right, but no. A disc with no spin accelerated will create lift like an airplane would and go up. The spin creates the "magnus effect" created by spinning objects, the air pressure changes, which causes a directional shift other than just simply up. Essentially one part of the wing is trying to go up, but is countered by the fact it's spinning. So when one goes up, the other has to go down. Airplanes would not be affected by this, as it's wing isn't spinning, thus creating a total lift, upwards. (By this effect if you were able to alter the air pressures around a bullet controllably, you'd be able to better control a bullet. Which if I'm not mistaken is being tested.)

Now, Aoa seems to be very key in this, seems to be slightly over looked as I believe it plays just a big of a role as DV, and AV. Aoa will make a disc either slow down, (nose up) or speed up(nose down). It also changes how the air flows across the disc affecting how key features work, creating lift, creating air pressure differences, and ultimately affecting the stability of the disc. As most of us know from throwing nose up for years.

To touch on something that's been left out of the discussion is the reverse COG (center of gravity) disc exhibit. I'm sure this has something to do with the air pressures and how spin and speed effect them. This I don't know, but It's apparent in the physical features of disc. So therefore, I'd make an educated guess that it's affects plays a good sized role the stability too.

So, the magnus effect, coupled with Aoa, and DV, and AV, AND the COG of the disc are what give you turn. I say it's a big mix of all of these, and not just one, as there are too many variables in the flight that can be a cause of stability. HOW exactly those affect the flights I think my descriptions above based off Vctor's and others descriptions are pretty sound theoretically. Any disc given the proper ratio's would displays all of these characteristics of flight. Just the ratio's would be different for different molds. This is my take on it.

 

[sidewinder22]

I refuse to believe that speed of the disc and notspin is responsible for high speed turn. If you take the spin factor out then you are left with solely flightspeed of the disc. I would like someone in this camp to explain these to me in a way we can all understand.
-longer flying discs perform their turn later in the flight when the disc is actually traveling slower than when initially thrown.
-air would move at the same rate past a disc if there was no spin....how would the anhyzer angle be achieved if there is no difference in air pressures/lift?
-According to your speed theory an airplane would turn to the right as would any object moving at high velocity.

I think the misconception is that a tight fast spinning throw will enable a disc to fight fade and appear to be going straighter....perhaps these throws are employing a very stable disc or the thrower is employing some OAT. (hyzer release)

Basically if you only spin a disc it will stay fairly stationary until it loses spin. If you throw a disc without spin it will flip upside down. Its a combination of spin and speed that make a disc turn but typically more speed dependent.

The later turn is from hyzer-flipping, they can look flat and straight, but they are turning the entire flight(they can't all the sudden turn right) and hit the ground before they run out of spin and begin the fade. So they are shorter hyzer-flips.

The physics are different between a disc and an airplane wing because of spin and wing design. A flying spinning disc alters lift/drag from left to right side. An airplane wing only alters lift/drag front to back.

 

[Lithicon]

My point wasn't about jargon. My point was to move away from the turn spin debate Poor choice of words wasn't trying to incite.

Ahh, understood. I was thinking about the dye. And, the only way I can come to understand this is the way it molds up during the cooling process due to the color of dyes used. I honestly can't see any other way to explain it. It's obvious color will either accept, dissipate heat at different rates. But, some have said this doesn't affect the disc that much, but if one is cooling slower than the other, I could see gravity possibly having some affect on it more sitting around while it's cooling. I don't know, just my guess.

The plastic thing I sort of gave my opinion, but Victor says the plastics aren't affected that much by the speeds at which we throw them. I'm not sure if I completely agree there, because aerodynamics have as much, or a very slight bit more effect on slower moving objects. I'm not sure if this translates in the air, but it does on the ground. As far as creating down pressure and for Nascar, this all works on the same principles for dirt race cars that aren't moving nearly as fast.

 

[Ryan P.]

This could be a book. It'd be a conversation driven, book, with the comedic relief provided by everyone knows who.

 

[optidiscic]

Faster cooling rates would not allow molecules to disperse as fast so the faster cooled plastics would end up being harder plastics and harder plastics are faster plastics....(leaps in logic I know) So I would guess that any abundance of dye would cause cooling to slow down? Maybe clearer plastics are harder as these have less dye? Perhaps certain discs contain more dyes or different dyes affect cooling rates in different ways.....thats where I'm going with the whole color affects disc flight ideas floating out there...pure conjecture.

 

[jrawk]

I'm still waiting for something that makes sense but all I'm getting is jargon in regards to why spin does not affect turn.

I would like to hear more about these:
the bead
the beveled edge
the groove on the groove and monarch
gimicks on more obscure discs
colors and why different runs perform differently (ive heaerd tie dye champion is by far the hardest and fastest)
why do some flat tops perform so stable...zone?

I tried to get caught up on this thread as best/fast as possible.

Pardon if this has already been said. Adding a bead to the bottom of the rim is like adding a 'spoiler' to a race car.. or another analogy is moving the elevator down on an airplanes tail wing. The taller the bead, the more prone the disc will be fading toward the ground. This, I assume, is the easiest way to counteract a discs understability. Shave the bead off a Roc and it will behave similar to a Buzzz. Or.... shave the bead off a Wasp and it will be similar to a buzzz.

 

[volklgirl]

Dang, this thread really makes me feel like the ditzy blond I am. I need to go back to college just to read this and have it make sense.

Great discussion guys!!!:thmbup: