An Open Letter to Three Putt/Garubladder

[optidiscic]

Dang, this thread really makes me feel like the ditzy blond I am. I need to go back to college just to read this and have it make sense.

Great discussion guys!!!:thmbup:

no worries volk we are just a bunch of guys pretending to be smart online

 

[sidewinder22]

I tried to get caught up on this thread as best/fast as possible.

Pardon if this has already been said. Adding a bead to the bottom of the rim is like adding a 'spoiler' to a race car.. or another analogy is moving the elevator down on an airplanes tail wing. The taller the bead, the more prone the disc will be fading toward the ground. This, I assume, is the easiest way to counteract a discs understability. Shave the bead off a Roc and it will behave similar to a Buzzz. Or.... shave the bead off a Wasp and it will be similar to a buzzz.

Post #105. Good examples though. :thmbup:

 

[tstack10]

You guys know a lot

 

[garublador]

I refuse to believe that speed of the disc and notspin is responsible for high speed turn. If you take the spin factor out then you are left with solely flightspeed of the disc. I would like someone in this camp to explain these to me in a way we can all understand.

You need both a rotational direction (direction of spin) and a linear direction (direction of flight) to define which way a disc will turn and fade. Both of them obviously contribute to both turn and fade.

Think about how freestyle players throw their discs. They take pretty understable discs (lids), spin the crap out of them but put very speed on them. The discs don't flip. In fact, they tend to hold the angle they're on really well, which is why they do it that way.

Its a combination of spin and speed that make a disc turn but typically more speed dependent.

That's my understanding, too. There's no doubt that spin helps increase resistance to turn and fade, but how much angular momentum (something I understand) a disc has compared to the areodynamic forces (something I do not understand) is something that I can only guess on based on my experience with disc flight.

More "snap" tends to give a disc both more speed and more spin. The ratio of spin to speed appears to be different on a high snap throw than a low snap throw.

Here's my take on it based on what I've observed and read. On a high snap, hyzer flip throw with a fairway driver (Teebird maybe) a disc starts off way above its cruise speed (which is determined by rim configuration and spin) and quickly starts flipping. As the disc rapidly slows down, the rate of flip also rapidly slows down. This is why discs appear to "snap" up from a hyzer on high snap throws rather than slowly flipping up from a hyzer on lower snap throws.

This part is even more of a guess: then, late in the flight the disc will turn a bit. At this point the disc's spin is slowing down fast enough compared to the speed to where the angluar momentum of the disc can't offset the aerodynamic forces anymore so the disc flips. Not long after that the speed slows down to the point where the disc gets to the fade part of the flight and the disc fades forward or forward/left.

On a lower snap throw, the spin to speed ratio is different so the disc slowly flips up, doesn't hold the line as "strong," never gets the late turn and the disc fades harder left. The disc doesn't slow down to its cruise speed as fast, maybe because the difference in disc speed to cruise speed isn't as high, and the disc isn't in the air long enough to get that late turn. By the time it would get that late turn the disc is slow enough to fade instead.

Again, those are the theories of a non aerodynamics guy based on what I've observed of disc flight and the little I've absorbed from threads like this.

 

[optidiscic]

Nice stab Garu I agree with you....those who simply say snap does nothing to create turn will have a difficult time explaining the hyzer flip....according to their logic the hyzer flip throw should just hold the hyzer line. The problem is as you have stated that spin and speed are usually achieved at the same time in the same ratios. When a freestyler spins a disc you are forgetting that there is little air moving over them from one direction...the air moving faster over a disc (speed) combined with spin (rotations) is what causes the change in lift on either side of a disc.
Speed simply gets a disc out further away from the tee faster before the turn begins. I would guess that turn actually happens in roughly the same time lapse in short and long throws.

 

[garublador]

The problem is as you have stated that spin and speed are usually achieved at the same time in the same ratios.

If I said that I didn't mean to. I don't know if they are acheieved with the same ratios or not.

When a freestyler spins a disc you are forgetting that there is little air moving over them from one direction...the air moving faster over a disc (speed) combined with spin (rotations) is what causes the change in lift on either side of a disc.

But if it's only spin that causes turn, then how come the disc isn't turning? How will it "know" which direction to turn without any sort of linear movement? There is no "right" or "left" without that speed vector. That means it's obvious that speed not only causes turn, it's required for "turn" to even mean anything.

Speed simply gets a disc out further away from the tee faster before the turn begins. I would guess that turn actually happens in roughly the same time lapse in short and long throws.

Speed/nose down causes turn. There's no doubt about that. Without speed a disc will not turn as illustrated with the freestyle type throw. You need a relative air speed to get turn and more relative air speed means more turn.

 

[optidiscic]

Speed and spin are required. They work together. But it's the speed of air moving over the disc which is really important. Speed and spin both contribute to this. Speed and Spin need to work together to create turn. The ratio I meant typically a harder throw will create more spin and a slower throw will create less spin. So the two r intrinsically linked typically.

 

[NateDiscFlip]

Post #105. Good examples though. :thmbup:

Not sure, since a buzzz seems more overstable than a roc

as for a stalker, without the ring is probably like a tracker....

I guess I always thought the ring was for stability, as a wasp is slower than a buzzz....or something...

hard to say....throw STALKERS!!!

 

[Lithicon]

Heh, that's the way to do it.

Just wondering, if anyone read my post on the last page. It was long, but like I said in it. I think there are a lot of variables together that alter stability.

 

[sidewinder22]

Not sure, since a buzzz seems more overstable than a roc

as for a stalker, without the ring is probably like a tracker....

I guess I always thought the ring was for stability, as a wasp is slower than a buzzz....or something...

hard to say....throw STALKERS!!!

The Buzzz vs Wasp is the best example of bead vs non bead, they are basically the same mold and the same speed, the bead just makes the Wasp more stable. Some Rocs/Sentinels are more stable than Buzzzs so it really depends in that case and they are different molds so thats not really the best example.

What is it with you and Stalkers? Its a decent disc, but really overlaps a Buzzz too much.

 

[grodney]

VictorB, a question for you.

You know those marketing terms that Innova has: Speed, Turn, Fade, Glide? Let's talk about "Turn" and "Fade".

Given two discs, is it possible for one to BOTH "Turn" more, and "Fade" more, than the other disc? With the important assumption that everything else between the discs is equal (speed, spin, angle, etc.).

If so, what physical characteristics could/would cause such a difference?

????

 

[garublador]

????

I can't answer why, but the answer is, "Yes." The Eagle compared to a Teebird is a perfect example.

 

[grodney]

I can't answer why, but the answer is, "Yes." The Eagle compared to a Teebird is a perfect example.

I know that's what the INNOVA chart claims. And I know that's what players observe. I just don't get it.


(In truth, it's not that I don't GET it, it's that I don't BELIEVE it. I think it's mis-perception. But I'm not afraid to say that I'm probably crazy and likely wrong!)

 

[BrotherDave]

Most of you guys know a lot

Fixed. I didn't want anyone to think I was included that statement.

I think there are a lot of variables together that alter stability.

This is what I suspect as well. There's probably some relationship that makes discs turn rather than one particular force or what not. The DV seems to be the more likely culprit than AV. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that a disc going too slow fades and that a disc going too fast turns. :|

 

[Lithicon]

Speed and spin are required. They work together. But it's the speed of air moving over the disc which is really important. Speed and spin both contribute to this. Speed and Spin need to work together to create turn. The ratio I meant typically a harder throw will create more spin and a slower throw will create less spin. So the two r intrinsically linked typically.

The ratio won't be the same on short and long throws, you can alter spin just as easily as you can speed. Short throws can have lots or little spin, longer throws generally require more spin, but isn't completely necessary to a certain distance to have so much. Hence, why low snap players can still throw 400', but when they really learn snap they'll push 450', 500'+.

Like I said in my earlier long post
Speed is the main contributing factor in turn. But, no speed alone won't make a disc turn. It needs a AV to determine which way it will turn and fade, and it also determines when it will turn and fade by the amount of spin on the disc at a given speed. But, it can stabilize also, such as manipulating snap so an under stable disc remains stable, then as the spin slows down, the speed takes over , coupled with Aoa, and because AV direction, the disc begins to turn. Then as the disc loses speed, some AV will still be there, the pressures shift and the disc begins to fade out. But, as mentioned there, Aoa has a key role. Because anyone that knows proper form, knows it requires nose angle manipulation. Aoa doesn't always determine turn, but it assist, or resist turn. Nose up, resist right turn, and assists in fading by ultimately slowing the disc down. Nose down can assist in right turn, and also assist in forward penetration, helps create lift, and "glide".

The way Garu explained the Hyzer flip sounds pretty spot on. But, all these factors together determine how, when, and why a disc will turn. That's about the only way I can see it. You can't really say equal spin and speed will make a true straight flight, none of us could know that. We have no way of measuring it. A ratio of spin and speed equal a true flight, but measuring that to know what it is would take some research, that wouldn't be so easy to do.

 

[optidiscic]

I guess no one ever notices when I write the word typically

 

[Lithicon]

I guess no one reads, because all this was explained.

 

[optidiscic]

I think I am in agreement with Lithicon for the most part.

I will try to explain this in lay terms and explain the way I see it.

Picture a Nascar Track. Picture 2 Cars. Picture Me connected to one of the cars by a parasail. Picture VictorB connected to another car by a parasail. My driver is Lithicon and VictorB's driver is Brother Dave. There are hurricane winds moving from east to west. Now lets say that garublader is mad at me cause I called him garubladder so he sabotogues me and Lithicon's car. The race begins and Brother Dave is a mad man driving 225 mph and zipping around the track like a true North Carolina Redneck. Lithicon is trying but our car just will not get past 125 mph. The hurricane winds are moving at 100 mph from east to west. Every time me and lith go east with the wind we lose all lift and are feeling just 25 mph of lift and I almost fall to the ground like a lead Rhino. Everytime VictorB and Brother Drive drive with the wind VicB loses lift but still has 125 mph of wind to live him up (225-100)...Victor B flys by me as I am almost hitting the earth. When we hit the turn and finally are flying into the wind I am gaining lift again as the air rushes by at 225 mph (125 +100) but VicB is laughing his ass off at me as he gains more lift as the air flys by him at 325 mph (100 +225)....Everytime we make a lap we dip and rise but vicb rises more as he is both making more laps and rises more everytime he makes a lap....I rise but not as quickly as I am neither making as many laps to gain more lift and dont gain as much lift as VicB.

In essence every lap of the track (spin) produces another moment of lift
The wind goes faster when you fly into it than it does when its at your back. So speed affects the disc differently on either side of the disc...one side moves into the wind and moves faster and produces more lift meanwhile the other side of the disc is going slower and produces less lift.....this difference creates more lift on one side and the disc rises up on one side creating an anhyzer angle and you have turn Faster discs will make it further from the tee pad before turn begins...at the same time the speed and spin both work together to create lift and thus turn.

I know this is all a pretty dry read I hope my nascar parasailing example at least was entertaining if it wasnt informative.

 

[optidiscic]

I guess no one reads, because all this was explained.

its funny I actually think I agree with you but its tough for me to illustrate my point online

 

[Lithicon]

Lmfao, it was entertaining. But, I think it muddles the ability to comprehend some aspects. The two cars are two different disc, spinning at a different rate(going around the track at different speeds). But, how you're thinking of the car going around the track(seperating the portion of the wing going into the wind, and out of the wind), it's on one portion of the track, going around the track. While the car is going the constant speed around the track(rate of spin), yes going in and out of the air will affect it. As you said, the speed on one side(going into the wind) will always be greater and creates a pressure difference (which way is dependent upon the Aoa) which creates more lift one side. So the more you increase the over all speed of the disc, the more lift you create on this side going into the wind.

As you say the moment of lift, since the disc is constant wing going around, the lift is generated constantly, the amount of spin and Aoe is what determines the rate and which the lift affects the disc and how fast it turns.

The rotation of the disc doesn't exactly accelerate this process, as it's rate of spin alone will generate more stability more than it would assist in the creation of lift due to spinning faster. Although the spin is needed to create the lift, I don't think it adds much more, until the point the stability is increased due to more spin, due to gyroscopicness. But, it was entertaining and not far off if you can comprehend how you meant it.