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Kids in PDGA tournaments without their own division

ptld2001

Bogey Member
Joined
Jul 22, 2009
Messages
72
I'm curious about other people's opinions about having kids in PDGA tournaments without their own divisions. It's something I'd never thought about before. However, I played in my first tournament, and ended up playing with a kid on my card. It's not that I don't believe that kids should be playing in tournaments, however I think they should have their own division. Of course, the obvious problem is if there aren't enough kids to have a separate division. However, I'm not sure having them play rec is the right answer. Realistically, the PDGA rules are tough enough for adults to follow, much less kids under 10. I'm not blaming the kids, but it seems like there should be a solution that isn't a disruption to other players in the division. Of course, the obvious solution is never to be on the bottom card with young kids, but that's not always an option, especially in one's first tournament:). I can't say I'll never play in another PDGA event again, but I'll definitely think long and hard to make sure I'm good enough to stay off the bottom card if there's no junior division.
 
I'm curious about other people's opinions about having kids in PDGA tournaments without their own divisions. It's something I'd never thought about before. However, I played in my first tournament, and ended up playing with a kid on my card. It's not that I don't believe that kids should be playing in tournaments, however I think they should have their own division. Of course, the obvious problem is if there aren't enough kids to have a separate division. However, I'm not sure having them play rec is the right answer. Realistically, the PDGA rules are tough enough for adults to follow, much less kids under 10. I'm not blaming the kids, but it seems like there should be a solution that isn't a disruption to other players in the division. Of course, the obvious solution is never to be on the bottom card with young kids, but that's not always an option, especially in one's first tournament:). I can't say I'll never play in another PDGA event again, but I'll definitely think long and hard to make sure I'm good enough to stay off the bottom card if there's no junior division.


They do have their own division.....but if it isn't offered or there are no other kids then Rec in the next option.

Also many of these kids are Int level by 12-13 so I see no reason to keep them from beating older players.

This is coming from someone who played with "old guys" as a young kid in PDGA tournaments.
 
If the kids aren't there to learn from the old farts, they will be throwing 15 different types of plastic without learning how to properly throw any of it.
 
Juniors is so tough because you have kids with natural skill that excel quickly and would dominate a casual juniors field, these are the ones who end up 1000 rated at 15 and win worlds.

You also have those with some good skill but they are kids so they lack certain muscle control so they will be your INT & ADV players when they mature a bit.

You also have kids that play with their family here and there, do pretty good and when they grow up will probably still start in REC due to lack of skill or practice.

You also have the kids who play once a month and come out to tournies with mommy or daddy and will get absolutely and totally owned by kid 1,2, & 3.

Chances are if you get 4 juniors you will have at least 3 of these types....and probably in 3 different age groups.
 
One of the juniors around here has decided to play in adult divisions so other juniors have a chance for some kid glory. His rating is high enough he has to play Am II, which is cool with him. He'll thrive on competition, plays with adults all the time, anyways.
 
Of course, the obvious problem is if there aren't enough kids to have a separate division. However, I'm not sure having them play rec is the right answer.
This made me LOL.

Of course, the obvious solution is never to be on the bottom card with young kids, but that's not always an option, especially in one's first tournament:).
Moving up at the next tourney?
 
The only kids I've known to play in adult divisions were good enough to be there. I think their parents had more to worry about that did the adults who might be pooled with those kids. Though it does put a few adult players in the position of, uh, being less free in their conduct for a round.
 
As a TD, if there isn't a full card you have to put those juniors somewhere. it is going to be with the most like players. if there isn't any am womens players then you would have to put them with the rec players. per rules there has to be 3 to a card so if there is only 1 or 2 juniors they will have to be joined up with another group. while it may be rough on the other players we certainly don't want to discourage juniors from playing. At our club's local tournaments this situation happens almost every time. we are usually fortunate to have enough am women to place the juniors with them, but as a TD you will always fall back on the statement you can't please everyone.
 
I'm not blaming the kids, but it seems like there should be a solution that isn't a disruption to other players in the division. Of course, the obvious solution is never to be on the bottom card with young kids, but that's not always an option, especially in one's first tournament:). I can't say I'll never play in another PDGA event again, but I'll definitely think long and hard to make sure I'm good enough to stay off the bottom card if there's no junior division.

It sounds like you didn't like playing with kids. But they are allowed to play in the adult divisions. To do otherwise would mean forcing all of us old farts to play in Masters, the really old farts to play Grandmasters and the "Oh My God You're Old " farts to play Senior Grandmasters. We wouldn't stand for that and neither should the kids.
 
I got my ass handed to me this weekend my a Kid less than 12 years old (Andrew Kaluk) ....playing am2 ...

I have the arm .. but he had the consistency....

this MIght be WHo .. DIsc golf Live was talking about ....
One of the juniors around here has decided to play in adult divisions so other juniors have a chance for some kid glory. His rating is high enough he has to play Am II, which is cool with him. He'll thrive on competition, plays with adults all the time, anyways.
 
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As a TD, if there isn't a full card you have to put those juniors somewhere. it is going to be with the most like players. if there isn't any am womens players then you would have to put them with the rec players. per rules there has to be 3 to a card so if there is only 1 or 2 juniors they will have to be joined up with another group. while it may be rough on the other players we certainly don't want to discourage juniors from playing. At our club's local tournaments this situation happens almost every time. we are usually fortunate to have enough am women to place the juniors with them, but as a TD you will always fall back on the statement you can't please everyone.

For what it's worth, I've heard a few women complain about being "designated babysitters" because they're usually grouped with the juniors. You might want to try grouping the juniors with the old farts every now and then.

Small divisions are messy for TDs, no doubt about it. Ultimately everyone has to make the best of it. Until the day disc golf is a hundred times more popular and we're holding a lot of Juniors events, Seniors events, Pro-only events, etc.
 
I understand all the problems for TDs, and I realize that there's no good answer. I think ultimately, the answer was that I shouldn't have been playing in the tournament. The trouble is that I wanted to play at the event, and the decision was made to sanction the event. Against my own better judgement, I played in the event. I got too wrapped up in it to realize that it isn't such a big deal that one of my drives got screwed up because a junior snuck up on me during my backswing, and I wasn't able to stop. If I were ready to play the tournament, I'd be able to stop in time. It's just that I wasn't expecting it, and it just totally threw me. It's interesting what the stress of a tournament can do to you.

I hope no one thinks I'm trying to discourage kids from playing in tournaments, but I'd like people to see it from the other side, that although some kids might be athletically ready to play in a PDGA tournament, there's more to playing in a tournament than just being able to throw well. If they're not able to observe appropriate etiquette rules for a full day, then maybe it's not the right place.
 
As a TD, if there isn't a full card you have to put those juniors somewhere. it is going to be with the most like players. if there isn't any am womens players then you would have to put them with the rec players. per rules there has to be 3 to a card so if there is only 1 or 2 juniors they will have to be joined up with another group. while it may be rough on the other players we certainly don't want to discourage juniors from playing. At our club's local tournaments this situation happens almost every time. we are usually fortunate to have enough am women to place the juniors with them, but as a TD you will always fall back on the statement you can't please everyone.

Backing up David, if my wife heard you put it that way she would hand you your ass on a platter and force you to review its flavor.

Women should not always be the designated babysitters there are plenty of REC players and like David said, older players too. If you want women to play (which maybe you don't) then they should not always be forced to watch the children...if you want the children to play don't act like its a hassle having them around.

On a side note, for young young kids I have found that letting them play 9 while everyone else plays 18 equals about the same amount of time and you don't put the physical burden on them...18 is like at or past breaking point for a lot of them.
 
I'm all for letting juniors play in adult divisions. A big problem I see with juniors is that they can't exactly drive to the tournament, so 98% of time they're only there because Dad (or on occasion Mom) who is playing in an adult division brought them. Often they are a one player division.

If by chance, multiple juniors are signed up, its the same two juniors from the last tournament, and the tournament before that. I'd think that would get a tad boring and discouraging for those kids after awhile, especially if one kid was better than the other. Letting them play against the adults gives them the chance to interact with other people, and help improve their game.

I got my ass handed to me this weekend my a Kid less than 12 years old (Andrew Kaluk) ....playing am2 ...

Last year, I got whupped by a kid younger than that. In fact, he beat the entire card of MA2 players that round, ended up placing, and to top it off, hit an ace. I ended up double bogeying the same hole.
:doh:
 
I hope no one thinks I'm trying to discourage kids from playing in tournaments, but I'd like people to see it from the other side, that although some kids might be athletically ready to play in a PDGA tournament, there's more to playing in a tournament than just being able to throw well. If they're not able to observe appropriate etiquette rules for a full day, then maybe it's not the right place.

Perhaps you had an unusually bad experience.

I've played with adults who had little tournament experience, and violated etiquette. Heck, my first tournament, I was one of those adults (and had to be chastised for it!).

We've a local player who was playing with adults at age 9 or 10, and competing for first in Advanced at age 11. His etiquette was better than many adults at that point.

Hopefully if kids are there because they're tagging along with a parent, the parent has taught them well enough to function well in the adult groups.

Hopefully.

Because if it's hard for the adults to have a kid in their group, think of how intimidated the kid might be.
 
I played Fire IN The Sky back in June and there was an 11 year old on my card both rounds. At first I thought the same thing, "Man I wish this kid had his own division so we don't get slowed down." But as the first round got under way, this kid was driving almost as far as me and the rest of the card and he could putt 95% from 25ft. I have no problems with kids (who know what they're doing) being on my card.

Even if the kid doesn't know what he's doing, if he just learns one thing in each round, it's not so bad. It makes me feel good when I can help someone's game, especially a kid, because I know they'll be back to play soon.
 
As an occasional TD myself, a parent of an 13 year old who's not even a Rec or Adv level player, and someone who's deeply involved in trying to encourage kids to participate in disc golf, I've gotta say that there's a lot of sides to this issue, most of which have been mentioned already. As a parent, I've tried to make sure that my son is aware of the rules and course etiquette (given that he's borderline Aspergers, it usually doesn't take much more than letting him know what the rules and etiquette are -- at that point he'll do anything possible to avoid violating them). I also make it a point to contact TDs of any event (sanctioned or not) that he's considering playing beforehand to determine what level of participation from juniors they're anticipating, and what their overall tone about it is -- I don't want to put either them or my son into an impossible situation. I'll also contact any other parents of juniors I know of who might be considering the same event, to gauge whether we can collectively guarantee three or four kids so that there's enough for at least one card.

In my experience, though, most kids who're playing a sanctioned event aren't going to cause too many problems for other players from a speed-of-play or distracting-behavior standpoint. I worry as much or more about the effect just the presence of a kid on the card will have on the mental aspect of the game for other players -- if they feel like they're having to constantly watch their language, behavior, etc., that in itself can be a distraction, and can put someone off their game or reduce their enjoyment of the event simply from having one more thing to think about. In my son's case, as a thirteen-year-old boy I doubt there's anything he's going to see or hear on the disc golf course that he hasn't seen or heard before, so I don't give it much thought myself, but I know that it has to cross the minds of other players.

I also try to judge carefully whether to arrange things with the TD so that we end up on the same card if I'm playing. It certainly makes it harder for me to focus on playing my best if I'm constantly monitoring his behavior and play, but I also feel an obligation to make sure that if he's playing in an adult group, particularly on a course he doesn't know, that (a) he's got someone he knows and trusts on the same card and that (b) there's at least one fewer adult player on the card who might be distracted or bothered by him, since I'm taking up that spot.

And as has been pointed out already, there's lots of kids out there who absolutely play at a level that justifies them playing Intermediate or even Advanced. I got to see a lot of them caddying for my son at Am/Junior Worlds. My son's new buddy Nick Duran just took 5th in Advanced at a tournament in Texas this weekend, just eight strokes back of the winner in a three-round event (he has three world championships in the 10 and Under division, and took third in 13 and under this year, at age 11). This year's 13 and under runner-up, Tristan Covington, has only played a handful of sanctioned events, but when he has it's been Int or Adv, and has cashed each time. I can promise you from having watched these kids that if you end up on a card with them, having their behavior be a distraction or having them slow you down is the last thing you'd ever have to worry about. They can school most adult players not only when it comes to throwing, but when it comes to conducting themselves appropriately on the course as well.

When you're down at the lower end of the Rec or Intermediate (if Rec isn't offered), you're going to have a certain number of people who're no fun to play with, who don't know how to behave, who play slow, and who cause problems for others, regardless of how old they are. Just goes with the territory, like having a slow time in previous races gets you seeded way back in traffic in a big running event like the Peachtree Road Race, which turn makes it harder to perform your best.
 
gotta think that any kid thats going to enter into a tournament they are going to be semi-decent and should not slow down a round too much

I have not played in a tourney so I dont know first hand but I would think the groups and play are big and slow enough that it wouldnt matter .... plus they cant be any worse than some of the players out at some tourneys
 
I understand all the problems for TDs, and I realize that there's no good answer. I think ultimately, the answer was that I shouldn't have been playing in the tournament. The trouble is that I wanted to play at the event, and the decision was made to sanction the event. Against my own better judgement, I played in the event. I got too wrapped up in it to realize that it isn't such a big deal that one of my drives got screwed up because a junior snuck up on me during my backswing, and I wasn't able to stop. If I were ready to play the tournament, I'd be able to stop in time. It's just that I wasn't expecting it, and it just totally threw me. It's interesting what the stress of a tournament can do to you.

I hope no one thinks I'm trying to discourage kids from playing in tournaments, but I'd like people to see it from the other side, that although some kids might be athletically ready to play in a PDGA tournament, there's more to playing in a tournament than just being able to throw well. If they're not able to observe appropriate etiquette rules for a full day, then maybe it's not the right place.

Warn him!

Seriously I know it is kind of bad but if a kid isn't following common courtesy you SHOULD at least let them know.
 

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