2/20/2020 Wysocki Returns

[Cgkdisc]

....

 

[DiscJunkie]

Chuck, again, what you and others seem to want is the right to come on here and make unfounded and generalised accusations that are somehow okay because they are critical of religion...while those of us who are Christians are supposed to sit quietly on the sidelines and nod our heads slowly about how bad our faith really is.

If you want to criticize that person and call him an idiot, go ahead. But don't make generalized assumptions and say all christians are that way.

Christians people and beliefs come in all flavors and varieties.

In the great majority of Christian belief systems, nutrition is nowhere to be found.
It is not, of necessity connected to Christianity in any way.

I also want to add that refusal of medical treatment is absent from the great majority of Christian belief systems.
It is not, of necessity connected to Christianity in any way.

 

[discerdoo]

I haven't seen this much righteous indignation since a Mexican showed up at a Trump rally.

 

[Three Putt]

However, bringing up some unrelated case of how you saved someone from religion is outside the bound of this discussion.

We didn't save anyone from religion. When things settled down we helped her look at some more mainstream churches and find a place for her to practice her faith because that was important to her and she needed to hang on to her faith. She's very happily practicing that faith in a healthier environment now.

What we saved her from was a psychotic wife beater an a "non-traditional" view that was turning out to be very harmful for her. It's the non-traditional view that turns out to be harmful thing that was my point; I think the vast majority of people in America are Christians and they know condoning wife beating and excommunicating a member who left her husband because she was being beaten isn't in any way a normal Christian view. So much so that I didn't think it needed to be explained.

 

[ru4por]

I want to remind everyone here that religion is a topic we are not supposed to bring up here on the forums.

If you want to talk about Ricky's religion and how it affected his decisions, you could make a case for that.

However, bringing up some unrelated case of how you saved someone from religion is outside the bound of this discussion.

Like Jimb said, these aforementioned beliefs are not common among all christian churches (they are actually very uncommon) and it is wrong to paint all Christians with the same tainted brush.
I'd like to say more, but again, religion is not the proper topic for these forums, except where it relates directly to the subject at hand, vis a vis, Ricky's poor decisions.

I think religion has been used here as an example of non scientific beliefs, interfering with scientific health care. I agree that we do not know if Wysocki's poor decisions are faith based, but I did use an example of where it was. It was not to denounce religion, but to emphasize that decision making is best made through use of data gathering and empirical evidence. Bad decisions, disregarding science and empirical evidence, are not any worse when done in the name of a deity, just equally as bad as when done in the name of anything else. If Wysocki is not reaching out for medical treatment of Lyme because of God, it is equally as idiotic as not reaching out because of some "nutritionist", is convincing him diet will cure the bacterial infection.

The inherent justification of, believe vs science, is a battle you will have to figure out for yourself. And, I agree not to be debated here.

 

[Cgkdisc]

I think religion has been used here as an example of non scientific beliefs, interfering with scientific health care. I agree that we do not know if Wysocki's poor decisions are faith based, but I did use an example of where it was. It was not to denounce religion, but to emphasize that decision making is best made through use of data gathering and empirical evidence. Bad decisions, disregarding science and empirical evidence, are not any worse when done in the name of a deity, just equally as bad as when done in the name of anything else. If Wysocki is not reaching out for medical treatment of Lyme because of God, it is equally as idiotic as not reaching out because of some "nutritionist", is convincing him diet will cure the bacterial infection.

The inherent justification of, believe vs science, is a battle you will have to figure out for yourself. And, I agree not to be debated here.

This is my take on it. It's not specifically about religion but about science which is rejected by some religions, not just Christian. I have acquaintances who are anti-vaxxers with no religious affiliation as the basis for their views. Jews have their Kosher beliefs and vegans their beliefs on nutrition.

BTW, this IS the place for unfounded and generalized speculations. Sorry it's not okay when particular beliefs MIGHT BE involved. I've certainly suffered my share of unfounded critiques over the years. From what I've understood from last fall when Ricky was first concerned it might be Lyme's, he specifically mentioned religion in relation to avoiding western medicine counsel. I already retracted specifically implying its connection with home schooling.

 

[Streets]

Has Ricky actually come out and said that he's refusing "mainstream" treatment for religious reasons or is this just a usual DGCR conclusion jump?

 

[ru4por]

Has Ricky actually come out and said that he's refusing "mainstream" treatment for religious reasons or is this just a usual DGCR conclusion jump?

In his interview with Terry Miller, he stated that to this point, he has not seen a doctor. I am not sure this can be categorized as refusal, but maybe rebuffed.

 

[Halcón]

I was able to have a brutal and frank discussion with her. I let her know that I thought deciding to abandon four children was the worst kind of atrocity I could think of, regardless of the deity she was leaning on. I was able to ultimately convince her to take blood, on her terms. I actually had to go back in on midnight shift, when no family or religious leadership was around. Gave her 4 units of blood before morning, with nobody being the wiser. I was a VERY hard decision for her. Convincing her to essentially turn her back on her faith was obviously a hard sell. She had surgery and was discharged. This kind of issue is fairly common in a hospital setting and not all have this kind of outcome. As a nurse, I strive for judgement free care and compassion, yet this was a time when I went against this.

You did not answer the question of whether or not all of her options were exhausted. What did the surgeon say to her? What choices did he give her so she could make a decision?

 

[Keller]

In his interview with Terry Miller, he stated that to this point, he has not seen a doctor. I am not sure this can be categorized as refusal, but maybe rebuffed.

If he hasn't seen a doctor, how does he even know he has Lyme?
Who actually made a lyme diagnoses?
Just curious

 

[DenverTiger13]

If he hasn't seen a doctor, how does he even know he has Lyme?
Who actually made a lyme diagnoses?
Just curious

This was my question Keller. One minute the nutritionist is emphasizing that he does not diagnose anyone. The next minute Ricky is saying he never saw a doctor. So... did Ricky self-diagnose himself with Lyme? Something isn't adding up there...

 

[DenverTiger13]

Long post incoming:

This subject is very interesting to me. Like I said in earlier posts, I work in a health care facility. I took the time yesterday to speak with a few physicians who have dealt with Lyme disease from a medical perspective. They explained to me that Lyme can present in two different forms: acute Lyme and chronic Lyme. The acute Lyme is much more common but the problem is there is no effective method to determine the difference between the two types other than seeing how long the symptoms last and whether the patient responds to antibiotic treatment.

The acute kind is what it sounds like many on this forum have had before which, with a course of antibiotics, can be cured relatively easily and quickly. Acute Lyme, however, left untreated can leave permanent damage to the body including joint and nervous system damage. Acute Lyme untreated also leads to contracting the chronic type of Lyme (in fact it is one of the most common ways of contracting the chronic type of Lyme disease).

The other kind of the disease is the chronic type. This sounds like what Ricky's nutritionist unfortunately contracted and has shaped his views on the disease. This kind is not respondent to antibiotic treatment typically and lasts for months, years or even a lifetime. The active infection of Lyme is not present but some sort of antibody is (medical study has conclusively pinpointed exactly what remains in the body) which can and does stay present for a lifetime in some individuals. This type is helped by making lifestyle changes like Ricky has done and, in some cases, can be effectively managed to provide the person with a relatively symptom-free life (again like it sounds like Ricky's nutritionist has managed this for himself.)

The problem here is that there was no way to know whether Ricky's Lyme was acute or chronic. If it was chronic, then what he has been doing is not necessarily bad or dangerous. In fact, it was one of his only options other than staying on constant antibiotic doses for life (which current research has not shown to be very effective). However, if Ricky had the acute type, he missed his opportunity to effectively cure himself, basically ensured he will have he will have chronic lingering effects from Lyme and left himself exposed to potential life-altering side effects (including symptoms from Fibromyalgia). In a way, we have to hope that Ricky contracted the rarer chronic Lyme because his chosen course of treatment was only targeted at chronic Lyme disease.

Bottom line here everyone: if you think you have Lyme, PLEASE see a physician and do a quick antibiotic course. The doctors I spoke with indicated, in their experience, that the chronic kind of Lyme is much rarer and in most cases a quick antibiotic treatment alleviates symptoms quickly and completely. Also, let's pray that Ricky had the chronic type of Lyme last year and that he has not exposed himself to potentially permanent joint and neurological damage. I hope this post sheds some light on this topic for others, it really helped bring this subject into focus for me.

 

[dorseymatt]

Long post incoming:

This subject is very interesting to me. Like I said in earlier posts, I work in a health care facility. I took the time yesterday to speak with a few physicians who have dealt with Lyme disease from a medical perspective. They explained to me that Lyme can present in two different forms: acute Lyme and chronic Lyme. The acute Lyme is much more common but the problem is there is no effective method to determine the difference between the two types other than seeing how long the symptoms last and whether the patient responds to antibiotic treatment.

The acute kind is what it sounds like many on this forum have had before which, with a course of antibiotics, can be cured relatively easily and quickly. Acute Lyme, however, left untreated can leave permanent damage to the body including joint and nervous system damage. Acute Lyme untreated also leads to contracting the chronic type of Lyme (in fact it is one of the most common ways of contracting the chronic type of Lyme disease).

The other kind of the disease is the chronic type. This sounds like what Ricky's nutritionist unfortunately contracted and has shaped his views on the disease. This kind is not respondent to antibiotic treatment typically and lasts for months, years or even a lifetime. The active infection of Lyme is not present but some sort of antibody is (medical study has conclusively pinpointed exactly what remains in the body) which can and does stay present for a lifetime in some individuals. This type is helped by making lifestyle changes like Ricky has done and, in some cases, can be effectively managed to provide the person with a relatively symptom-free life (again like it sounds like Ricky's nutritionist has managed this for himself.)

The problem here is that there was no way to know whether Ricky's Lyme was acute or chronic. If it was chronic, then what he has been doing is not necessarily bad or dangerous. In fact, it was one of his only options other than staying on constant antibiotic doses for life (which current research has not shown to be very effective). However, if Ricky had the acute type, he missed his opportunity to effectively cure himself, basically ensured he will have he will have chronic lingering effects from Lyme and left himself exposed to potential life-altering side effects (including symptoms from Fibromyalgia). In a way, we have to hope that Ricky contracted the rarer chronic Lyme because his chosen course of treatment was only targeted at chronic Lyme disease.

Bottom line here everyone: if you think you have Lyme, PLEASE see a physician and do a quick antibiotic course. The doctors I spoke with indicated, in their experience, that the chronic kind of Lyme is much rarer and in most cases a quick antibiotic treatment alleviates symptoms quickly and completely. Also, let's pray that Ricky had the chronic type of Lyme last year and that he has not exposed himself to potentially permanent joint and neurological damage. I hope this post sheds some light on this topic for others, it really helped bring this subject into focus for me.

It sounds like you have a good general understanding, but the prognosis is still very good if you take the antibiotics even if you've gone undiagnosed for quite a long time (as was the case with me). My understanding is that it is pretty rare, but not unheard of, for the antibiotics to not work. This is paraphrasing from the Johns Hopkins Lyme disease clinic I went to.

 

[DenverTiger13]

It sounds like you have a good general understanding, but the prognosis is still very good if you take the antibiotics even if you've gone undiagnosed for quite a long time (as was the case with me). My understanding is that it is pretty rare, but not unheard of, for the antibiotics to not work. This is paraphrasing from the Johns Hopkins Lyme disease clinic I went to.

Thanks for the addition! I really didn't touch too much on the topic of being undiagnosed for a prolonged period of time with the physicians I spoke with. Glad to hear the prognosis is still very good in that situation!

 

[ThrowBot]

Many on this forum probably have a good understanding on proper medicinal treatment of the Chronic form of Lyme disease.

For those still wondering, I suggest you seek an opinion from Dr. Dre.

 

[John Hansen]

 

[ru4por]

You did not answer the question of whether or not all of her options were exhausted. What did the surgeon say to her? What choices did he give her so she could make a decision?

The options were few. Take blood, to put her system in a position for surgery or don't. The surgeon had already spoke to the patient and let her know he would not do surgery with a hemoglobin so low. The chances for survival would have been negligible.

Informed consent is paramount in a hospital setting. It is the care team's responsibility to provide the patient with all the facts to make a decision.

Without surgery, the patient would have expired.

 

[Consult20]

I think the reality of the situation is if Rick hadn't received that email from Drew, he would have most likely gone to the doctor and gotten properly diagnosed and none of this would be an issue. Especially since he had already been prescribed antibiotics for his finger injury.

It seems the nutritionist was more interested in glamming onto a disc golf pro for personal reasons, rather than just letting Rick deal with his medical issues conventionally.

 

[Halcón]

The options were few. Take blood, to put her system in a position for surgery or don't. The surgeon had already spoke to the patient and let her know he would not do surgery with a hemoglobin so low. The chances for survival would have been negligible.

Informed consent is paramount in a hospital setting. It is the care team's responsibility to provide the patient with all the facts to make a decision.

Without surgery, the patient would have expired.

Well, I still have questions, but we shouldn't delve into this woman's history any more.

Just like we shouldn't be making Ricky's decisions for him. :|

 

[Orioles_Lefty]

I was going to post something similar yesterday but realized I don't have the expertise to fully articulate the ideas, so I appreciate this post. Chronic Lyme is a very controversial issue as far as I understand the topic, both because lots of *stuff* can get labeled as chronic Lyme and because chronic Lyme itself has not been fully defined/differentiated. For instance, post-treatment Lyme disease (PTLDS) is a known condition involving a long-term auto-immune response following initial antibiotic treatment but that may not be the same thing as chronic Lyme, which some experts contend is not a thing at all. Prochista Khakpour's memoir *Sick* offers a first-person perspective on all of the above from the patient perspective. A good, if also unsettling read.

I'm not a doctor but I've been tested for delayed-diagnosis Lyme (negative) and docs have suggested an auto-immune chronic Lyme as a possible diagnosis for a whole group of symptoms I experience chronically, though other auto-immune diagnoses appear to be more likely accurate in my case. Mention chronic Lyme to a neurologist or a rheumatologist and who knows what response you might get.

Long post incoming:

This subject is very interesting to me. Like I said in earlier posts, I work in a health care facility. I took the time yesterday to speak with a few physicians who have dealt with Lyme disease from a medical perspective. They explained to me that Lyme can present in two different forms: acute Lyme and chronic Lyme. The acute Lyme is much more common but the problem is there is no effective method to determine the difference between the two types other than seeing how long the symptoms last and whether the patient responds to antibiotic treatment.

The acute kind is what it sounds like many on this forum have had before which, with a course of antibiotics, can be cured relatively easily and quickly. Acute Lyme, however, left untreated can leave permanent damage to the body including joint and nervous system damage. Acute Lyme untreated also leads to contracting the chronic type of Lyme (in fact it is one of the most common ways of contracting the chronic type of Lyme disease).

The other kind of the disease is the chronic type. This sounds like what Ricky's nutritionist unfortunately contracted and has shaped his views on the disease. This kind is not respondent to antibiotic treatment typically and lasts for months, years or even a lifetime. The active infection of Lyme is not present but some sort of antibody is (medical study has conclusively pinpointed exactly what remains in the body) which can and does stay present for a lifetime in some individuals. This type is helped by making lifestyle changes like Ricky has done and, in some cases, can be effectively managed to provide the person with a relatively symptom-free life (again like it sounds like Ricky's nutritionist has managed this for himself.)

The problem here is that there was no way to know whether Ricky's Lyme was acute or chronic. If it was chronic, then what he has been doing is not necessarily bad or dangerous. In fact, it was one of his only options other than staying on constant antibiotic doses for life (which current research has not shown to be very effective). However, if Ricky had the acute type, he missed his opportunity to effectively cure himself, basically ensured he will have he will have chronic lingering effects from Lyme and left himself exposed to potential life-altering side effects (including symptoms from Fibromyalgia). In a way, we have to hope that Ricky contracted the rarer chronic Lyme because his chosen course of treatment was only targeted at chronic Lyme disease.

Bottom line here everyone: if you think you have Lyme, PLEASE see a physician and do a quick antibiotic course. The doctors I spoke with indicated, in their experience, that the chronic kind of Lyme is much rarer and in most cases a quick antibiotic treatment alleviates symptoms quickly and completely. Also, let's pray that Ricky had the chronic type of Lyme last year and that he has not exposed himself to potentially permanent joint and neurological damage. I hope this post sheds some light on this topic for others, it really helped bring this subject into focus for me.