2016 Am Worlds - Madison, Wi

[Pbmercil]

If you are willing and planning on playing AM Worlds (a week long commitment of time and resources), playing a either a few larger tournaments (or a bunch of small ones) and beating competitors shouldn't be too much to ask to earn your slot into line for a World Championship.

I never said qualifying under the current system was particularly hard. I'm saying playing mediocre to crappy golf in huge fields 2 or 3 times a year shouldn't give someone a significantly better opportunity to play in an Am Worlds then someone else playing better golf in significantly smaller fields.

 

[bhadella]

Either we have a free-for-all registration (which is nuts) or we use another mechanism (like points or ratings). Ratings can be gamed too. One of our local course directors (leads the maintenance/upkeep of the course) had the highest amateur rating in the world for the past few years. He played a single league round on the course he maintains (and lives next to and plays multiple times a day) and killed it. Boom, 1024 rating. And then proceeded to not play another round for the next three years and continued to stay current. Highest rated am for 3 years in a row. Based on rating, should he get priority for tournaments above everyone below 1024, right?

I agree that relative weighting for points on REC is too high (6) when compared to ADV (10) for a A Tier. But I have no issue with the weighting of an A tier for ADV being 10 relative to a C tier (5). Playing well in higher levels tournaments should earn more points.

 

[araytx]

I'll agree that something does need to change in the registration process. And a good discussion should be had about what that is. There was an interesting comment made upthread about quality of the event vs. quality of the competitors.

The points threshold probably does need to be increased by some amount.

I'm not a big fan of regional qualifiers. This just forces participants to have available another specific weekend and likely require additional travel expenses. You also have the concern of home course advantage to players at the regional sites. And you potentially get into the gamesmanship of traveling to play a different region because they have weaker players than yours.

The best solution would probably be to split the event as others have mentioned. MA1/FA1/JR in one and Masters+ in another. This has the likely benefit of more total spots available. However, the elephant in the room there is getting two organizations to host a PDGA Major when the PDGA is having enough trouble getting bids on current one.

I guess I currently favor tiered registration based on PDGA points. Though ARay raises a valid concern that points are more difficult to come by in certain geographical areas.

First I must say, that I always knew that ERic J was a super smart guy. To all the complainers, if you want to pm me about volunteering to help a DFW bid on a larger version for 2018, I'll tabulate those pms, call on you, and appreciate the assistance.

Now moving forward, not a big fan of qualifiers, either, but just thorwing an option out there. People already have to go to tournaments to get enough points anyway. If they know 18 months in advance of the process, they could at least redirect their resources to the qualifiers knowing when and where they'd be. And yes there wouldf likely be some division maneuvering and traveling to an event with different competiton to increase my chances, but that's a "so be it" to me.

Charlotte Built 10 full courses in 3 years. So 1 or 2 temp courses at a golf course is not impossible...

Seriously? On someone else's golf course? Any decent ball golf course is not gonna allow disc golfers to take money out of their pockets particularly on high volume days. And if there is one around not making any money, are we sure we can build one there (or would even want to) in less than a month? Emporia KS is unusual in it's relationship with the ball golf courses there.

Unless a ball golf course is already built to accommodate disc golf, I doubt very seriously that there's a disc golf event in the world that can replenish the money they'd be losing in revenue for us to throw Frisbees(R) on it for week.

Im sure there were a ton of prior discussions, my complaint is it seems like the growth areas really got screwed with this event. Youth and Women. We have enough 20-50 year old men playing the sport...to have a deep waiting list for Advanced women on day 1... Seems like we are missing an opportunity. Hoping the winner of this worlds isnt simply just the person that clicked the fastest, that the best Am's in the world in any division had a real chance to make it in.

See my chart attached. I took all the divisions, with their caps and charted the % of cap on waitlist and the ratio of waitlist to pool as of 9:20 CDT this morning. It looks like the largest percentage of waitlist to total are in FG1, FJ2, and FJ1, each at 100% with 4 spots and 4 already waiting. then comes MS1 at 75%, FA1 at 70%, MG1 at 57%, MM1 at 50%, FM1 and MJ3 at 42% before you get to both MA1 and MJ2 at 37% and 36% respectively. The "chance" or opportunity is in 9 or 10 divisions before you get to MA1, advanced men, ... where the complaints seem to be coming from.

IMO the fact that a location won the AM Worlds bid utilizing only 5 courses while shrinking field size by 25% from prior year (576 this year, 752 last year) shows just how much maturing our DG scene needs. Split AM Worlds into two segments (age protected and not) if that is all the capacity available from bidding locations.

Again, the PDGA has only gotten a certain amount of bids. I don't believe that the PDGA would say, "hey we've got better bids, but we're gonna choose Madison, WI because they can only accommodate 576." Seriously??? once again, that doesn't make sense. Madison was chosen because they were the best of all available bids for this year. Therefore, at this rate if it's split it's only going to be an every other year event for each division. Are you saying that it's worth it to us as members to not have an Am Worlds every year? Say we split it ... at the rate we're doing it now, that would mean the FA1/MA1/Jrs Am Worlds every other year, and then the Masters+ Am Worlds every other year.

Divisions of 2 &3 youth/senior girls and boys. Only 40 advanced Women, 3 Junior 1!? what a shame.
How is this a worlds championship when most of the divisions have less than 5, 10 for many... players, with no prior screening except for a minimal amount of points.

Easy to say if you're not a youth girl, youth boy, or senior woman. Why do they have to get slighted so your division can have more people in it? Seems kinda unfair to have an Am& Jr Worlds without every available division.


In general about the only thing that could even be broached now would be increasing the 72-person pools to 90 and accommodate 5-somes. But even that is risky with the current schedule, because we have the 27-hole rounds on shotgun starts twice a day... SO that's likely not possible as well. In 2013 in Emporia, the PDGA tried increasing some pools to 90 and having some courses with 3 shotgun starts a day 7:30- 11:00 and 3:00. PDGA said that the 3 shotgun starts won't ever be done again after they tried it. So I don't think there is much to be done about 2016.

 

[araytx]

Chart didn't go through

 

[araytx]

Agreed. As part of the bidding/vetting process they should have recognized that 576 spots is not enough and pushed for an temp course or another course (or multiple courses) be used. Now isn't the time to realize that more capacity was needed.

Who knows, maybe the PDGA did. And Madison said sorry 576 is the most we can handle...

Then the PDGA had to either accept it or move on to the next best bid, if there even was one.

 

[jksdg]

1. set a goal like qualifiers will be within 90 miles of 95% of registered PDGA disc golfers. (could be 20-30 places)
2. 75% of spots are determined by finishing in top X place and 25% for best tournaments scores outside X places (wild card)
3. Amount of people qualifying at each location varies based on density of disc golf population surrounding that qualifier
4. Still have a points requirement
5. Perhaps add a volunteering requirement (difficult to quantify)

 

[bhadella]

Again, the PDGA has only gotten a certain amount of bids. I don't believe that the PDGA would say, "hey we've got better bids, but we're gonna choose Madison, WI because they can only accommodate 576." Seriously??? once again, that doesn't make sense. Madison was chosen because they were the best of all available bids for this year. Therefore, at this rate if it's split it's only going to be an every other year event for each division. Are you saying that it's worth it to us as members to not have an Am Worlds every year? Say we split it ... at the rate we're doing it now, that would mean the FA1/MA1/Jrs Am Worlds every other year, and then the Masters+ Am Worlds every other year.

Splitting means having the age protected Divisions on one weekend (or another location) than MA1 and FA1; it does not mean every other year.

 

[bhadella]

Seriously? On someone else's golf course? Any decent ball golf course is not gonna allow disc golfers to take money out of their pockets particularly on high volume days. And if there is one around not making any money, are we sure we can build one there (or would even want to) in less than a month? Emporia KS is unusual in it's relationship with the ball golf courses there.

Unless a ball golf course is already built to accommodate disc golf, I doubt very seriously that there's a disc golf event in the world that can replenish the money they'd be losing in revenue for us to throw Frisbees(R) on it for week.

Getting a temporary course on Park and Rec property or a municipal ball golf course is entirely possible with 18 months to plan. Heck, a 9 hole ball golf par 3 course is typically enough land for a 18 hole temp disc golf course.

 

[araytx]

Getting a temporary course on Park and Rec property or a municipal ball golf course is entirely possible with 18 months to plan. Heck, a 9 hole ball golf par 3 course is typically enough land for a 18 hole temp disc golf course.

You're missing the point. Who's paying for it? That ball golf course is losing tons of revenue for us to play on it.
They're gonna want to be paid.

Splitting means having the age protected Divisions on one weekend (or another location) than MA1 and FA1; it does not mean every other year.

SO now you're backing Worlds to a 2 or 3-day weekend tournament. Or are you saying only places that have 8 + courses in the same location can host?? Which is it?



btw, I only played in 5 Am events last year and received over 1000 points.

 

[bhadella]

Who knows, maybe the PDGA did. And Madison said sorry 576 is the most we can handle...

Then the PDGA had to either accept it or move on to the next best bid, if there even was one.

I think that is entirely possible (and probable). It's just an indictment on the state of the game that we didn't have a better bid.

 

[bhadella]

You're missing the point. Who's paying for it? That ball golf course is losing tons of revenue for us to play on it.
They're gonna want to be paid.

SO now you're backing Worlds to a 2 or 3-day weekend tournament. Or are you saying only places that have 8 + courses in the same location can host?? Which is it?

btw, I only played in 5 Am events last year and received over 1000 points.

I would assume increasing the field size by 72 or 144 would go pretty far on being able to rent a municipal or 9 hole par 3 course for the span of Tuesday through Friday.

If we can't find a location that can handle all of the AM Worlds demand, it should either be split into two locations or into two separate weeks. I wasn't implying we should reduce the number of rounds or days.

 

[Glide]

Who knows, maybe the PDGA did. And Madison said sorry 576 is the most we can handle...

Then the PDGA had to either accept it or move on to the next best bid, if there even was one.

We were very clear about the number of players (576) we were comfortable with when submitted the bid. The PDGA has not asked us to increase the event's capacity.

 

[Matt B.]

We were very clear about the number of players (576) we were comfortable with when submitted the bid. The PDGA has not asked us to increase the event's capacity.

Gotta love all the "you should" guys who "should" all over everything that TDs do.

 

[Pbmercil]

Gotta love all the "you should" guys who "should" all over everything that TDs do.

Indeed.

All the bickering about If it should be possible to expand the field is entirely missing the point. Expanding the field isn't worth it if the people putting on the event can't handle the volume increase. If I have to choose between a <600 person event that is super well ran and hard to get into and a >700 person event that is a logistical nightmare it's an easy pick for me. Last year's Am Worlds seemed to be overall quite well received, but there were still some major problems with how the event ran that might not have been issues if the field was smaller. Its not fair to assume that anyone can increase quantity of players without decreasing quality of the event.

 

[smarkquart]

Quad Cities (2017) better be watching this thread with close scrutiny. I originally thought that this year was going to be my last Am Worlds because I am not able to travel, but I am within one-day's drive of the Quad Cities. If I end up on the waiting list for that one as well, I am giving up on the PDGA.

 

[dobbins66]

I'd think divisions with less that 150-200 would have to be highest rated rounds ONLY at the regional qualifiers. This would be less than optimal because you like to be able to compete knowing if you win you are in.

The U.S. Open uses something similar. I think it would be very exciting if there was a formal process of getting in.

If you raise the points requirement you would just have players playing down or looking for the divisions with the most people.

If you went this model you would obviously need to make sure there wasn't a made mouse fest to get in to qualifiers.

Only Advanced and Age protected divisions are offered at Am Worlds(men & women) so only points earned playing Advanced and age protected divisions count towards Worlds. With the exception of Juniors. I'm also not a big fan of the inflated point totals because of Sanctioned Leagues. Some sanctioned leagues are grouping everyone in an Advanced Division for the PDGA submission. But the ranking for the league standings is based on a handicap system Not accurate points earned in my opinion.

 

[araytx]

I think that is entirely possible (and probable). It's just an indictment on the state of the game that we didn't have a better bid.

the "WE" is us -- you and me and everyone who doesn't like the current system. We could do the work and get volunteers in our own area and put together a bid. Perhaps, "the indictment on the state of the game" might be that people in the past have worked their tails off for more than a year to host Worlds, only to be besieged by unreasonable and/or uneducated bitchin' from members. That's really not necessary. I truly hope that this thread doesn't dissuade Glide and his team from ever bidding again.

However, I am committed to trying once again to get a bid together in my area -- THAT's what we can do.

We were very clear about the number of players (576) we were comfortable with when submitted the bid. The PDGA has not asked us to increase the event's capacity.

As I suspected. The PDGA staff had to know this going in; all of us Ams who got invite packages knew that going in as well. It's not right to trouble the group in Madison to solve someone else's issue. If WE the membership see a problem, then WE need to solve it – not Glide's team, not Big Dog's team – WE do.

I would assume increasing the field size by 72 or 144 would go pretty far on being able to rent a municipal or 9 hole par 3 course for the span of Tuesday through Friday.

You're kidding, right? How much do you think a sustainable golf course brings in in revenue in a week? I'd guess something like $15-$20 K for an average course that does $1million a year, nowhere near the increase in revenue minus the cost of having the additional entrants for us. Heck, if it's a full 144 then you're still short on the cost and that doesn't take into account the money needed for 144 more players packs, all the equipment and needs for running an additional course – water, more workers, what you'll need to pay the ball golf course staff for custodial type work etc. People who aren't TD's don't think of stuff like this. They think the tournament they attend just magically happens.

If we can't find a location that can handle all of the AM Worlds demand, it should either be split into two locations or into two separate weeks. I wasn't implying we should reduce the number of rounds or days.

Again, that's still twice the workers, twice the manpower, twice the city's courses being unavailable for its own taxpaying citizens, etc. [if the two Worlds are in the same location on separate weeks]; -- or getting another good quality bid from someone to host [if it's in a different location]. You've got to see the inherent problems therein.

Gotta love all the "you should" guys who "should" all over everything that TDs do.

Amen brother! Amen.

 

[Rob Martin]

Comparing 2016 AM Worlds to other events is Apples & Oranges. Madison has their slate of courses. Everyone else has a different one.

Madison has been working on prep'ing their courses, staff, volunteers, etc. for well over a year. Asking them to add more courses at the 11th hour is fine, but it reveals how little you know about producing such an event. And expecting them to add more courses at the 11th hour is just silly.

The PDGA probably had a good idea how many invites would go out for 2016 and they approved the Madison bid knowing there was a 576 cap. No one involved in organizing this event, nor most of the players who've participated in the last several years are surprised at this event filling and waitlisting. I do feel sorry for those players who expected this to be their first Worlds and thought registering the next morning would be good enough.

BRAVO, BRAVO!!! :clap:

 

[araytx]

Quad Cities (2017) better be watching this thread with close scrutiny. I originally thought that this year was going to be my last Am Worlds because I am not able to travel, but I am within one-day's drive of the Quad Cities. If I end up on the waiting list for that one as well, I am giving up on the PDGA.

The PDGA page states that Quad Cities is expected to host between 500-700 competitors. SO don't count on it getting any better.

http://www.pdga.com/major-disc-golf-events

 

[Rob Martin]

Why do you think the PDGA has not announced the Pro Worlds location yet for 2017?

A: The bids they have received were deemed inadequate.

BIDS ARE EFFIN' HARD!

To have the quality of courses, quality of paid - or more likely volunteer - staff, capital, etc., is not EASY. Of all the bids that came in, Madison was considered the BEST.

This is one response I received from a PDGA staff member. I won't quote the name because at the time the conversation was private.

We'd have to take a close look at the potential to stagger by division. One issue is that we have a bunch of players who earned invites in multiple divisions.



Midnight is actually the most fair time when you consider all registrants. We can't do it on the weekend due to people playing in tournaments, and many people are not allowed to use the internet during their work hours and also have lengthy commutes to get home. This precludes roughly 6am-8pm for the majority of players who work Day shift hours. When considering the West Coast that could be as late as 11pm Eastern time. But most of the European players are 6 hours behind Eastern time so Midnight Eastern means they have to be available early at 6am, which is fairly reasonable as opposed to requiring them to do so even earlier in the wee hours. For those of us on the East Coast, Midnight is not ideal, but it is fair considering everyone who may wish to register. We did consider if the third tier could be a few hours earlier since it would be mostly US players, but we decided consistency was just as important to avoid confusion across the multiple tiers since it's been done at midnight Eastern for many, many years and people are used to it.



We definitely need to reduce the number of invites and we will likely do so with a larger number of points required. Next year the MPO/FPO worlds will use ratings for registration (like the NTs), but it is unlikely that Amateur Worlds will use ratings as the Board of Directors have steadfastly maintained that Amateur Worlds is based on participation alone as it is less of a "Top Competitor" event, and more of a "convention" or "family gathering" event where anyone who has committed to playing during the previous year has at least a chance to participate.

AM Worlds is a different mindset then Pro Worlds.

If you want a true AM Champion - the United States Amateur Disc Golf Championship provides that.