2022 Las Vegas Challenge Feb 24-27

[Flick Maniac]

Watched the video in question last night. So here are my thoughts.
So would one actually expect Adam to run up the fairway to pick up his OB disc? Who does that? The answer is, No one.
The disc is OB, out of bounds. No need to worry about it.
His thrown disc from the drop zone hitting his disc in the OB is an absolute fluke. Who would penalize him for that? The answer is, again, No one.

Those would be valid points vis a vis fairness.

However, the wording in the rule book is what we must play by. But then again, when most rules are self-governed by the group, that brings in the "hey you suffered already by throwing into that thicket, you dont deserve another penalty" vibe that we see in weeklies and should learn to lean away from before going to proper tourneys.

Its tough to write rules in a succinct way that still covers most situations, doesnt leave loopholes and is also fair.

Stellar shooting btw by Gannon and Drew. Theres just something titillating about rules talk that gets me

 

[glassila]

If you go by the letter of rule 810 G: It is a violation if a player or their equipment interferes with the course of their own thrown disc, I think what happened was a penalty.
However, I think common sense and speed of play supersedes the rule. (The "Rules Nazis" probably disagree.)

Hammes could have gone forward and picked up his OB disc, but did not. I doubt if anyone else would have either.

There are other holes on Tour where players do not go forward to pick up their OB disc which could be struck by a Drop Zone throw or by a rethrow from the previous lie. I've never seen anyone hit their OB disc before, but there is the possibility of it happening in almost every Tour event. In some cases it would take 4-5 minutes to retrieve the OB throw.

How about hole 3 at DGLO? A player lands a few feet OB on the left side of of the fairway. Are they expected to go down that steep hill, walk over 700 feet, retrieve that disc then return to the top of the hill before re-teeing? :doh:

 

[BillFleming]

Regarding a player's disc being OB. And then their subsequent throw (from a drop zone) going OB and hitting their previous OB disc. The important thing to remember is:

801.02.H. Enforcement.
A throw or an action that is subject to penalty under more than one rule is played under the rule that results in the most penalty throws; or, among rules that call for an equal number of penalty throws, the rule that was first violated.

The second throw going OB (1 stroke penalty) and the "interference" by hitting the previous OB disc (1 stroke penalty) are not combined. Only one stroke penalty is assigned since they happened on the same throw and are are equal penalties.

Interestingly, the rule on interference would mean the second OB throw isn't OB. The player would take two strokes (1 for the throw and one for the interference penalty) and go back to the previous lie.

810.D. Interference
It is a violation if a player or their equipment interferes with the course of their own thrown disc. [B}The throw and one penalty throw are counted in the player's score; the player continues play from the previous lie.[/B] Any other penalty throws incurred by the throw are disregarded. If a throw is interfered with by request of the thrower, that is considered the same as a player interfering with their own throw.

Bolding above is mine for emphasis.

An interesting part of the rule is "interferes with the course of their own thrown disc". So you would have to determine that the course of the player's disc was interfered with by their disc laying OB.

 

[BillFleming]

I should have included this in my previous post.

So the final rules decision should be: 1 penalty stroke for the OB as that happened first. Then depending on the OB rule, the player would either go to a drop zone or play from where the disc was last inbounds.

 

[Flick Maniac]

I do agree with common sense and speed of play, but the discrepancy should be handled somehow. Cant really in good conscience have a rule, and then go "yeah but that doesnt apply here".

If they had been alert to the rules (which I know many players arent and isnt necessarily feasible to always be in a not ideal world) theyd have played a provisional and taken it up with the TD at the end of the round.

Btw does anyone know what the R1 H6 (iirc) misplay was that caused several players to get +2 in their score for the final round, and how many people it affected?

 

[EllEstar]

I do agree with common sense and speed of play, but the discrepancy should be handled somehow. Cant really in good conscience have a rule, and then go "yeah but that doesnt apply here".

If they had been alert to the rules (which I know many players arent and isnt necessarily feasible to always be in a not ideal world) theyd have played a provisional and taken it up with the TD at the end of the round.

Btw does anyone know what the R1 H6 (iirc) misplay was that caused several players to get +2 in their score for the final round, and how many people it affected?

I think people were playing normal OB rules if you went OB from 2nd dz instead of rethrowing from 2nd dz until it came to rest on an island.

Pretty sure at least TT and Uli were affected, but I just happened to notice them.

 

[DatRedDude]

That rule has always been a weird one. Hit your own equipment, where ever, and get penalty. Drill first available tree, bounce straight back and hit your own bag is a penalty per the rules. Who is going to call one like this?

I havent seen the situation in question, but as per the rules, he hit his own disc (equipment) and thats what the rules says in so many words.

Played a tourney last year and a guy threw a thumber out of trouble, it hit first available, came right back at him and landed on top of his cart(weirdest thing i have seen in a tourney). We all looked at each other and the guy called the penalty on himself. We had a good laugh he took a 6 and we moved on.

 

[glassila]

Played a tourney last year and a guy threw a thumber out of trouble, it hit first available, came right back at him and landed on top of his cart(weirdest thing i have seen in a tourney). We all looked at each other and the guy called the penalty on himself. We had a good laugh he took a 6 and we moved on.

Man that's a tough penalty!
It sounds like the guy parked his cart in a place where he was sure it would not be hit...yet it was hit.
It would be nice if the rules allowed the group to decide whether this should be a penalty or not.
In my opinion, there is always a chance that you could hit your bag/cart due to a tree hit and roll.
I don't think a player should be penalized if his bag/cart gets hit when the group agrees that the player put it in a place where it was very unlikely to be hit.

 

[DatRedDude]

Man that's a tough penalty!
It sounds like the guy parked his cart in a place where he was sure it would not be hit...yet it was hit.
It would be nice if the rules allowed the group to decide whether this should be a penalty or not.
In my opinion, there is always a chance that you could hit your bag/cart due to a tree hit and roll.
I don't think a player should be penalized if his bag/cart gets hit when the group agrees that the player put it in a place where it was very unlikely to be hit.

The cart was behind him, he hit a branch on his backswing and it jarred the disc loose, he basically pushed it out of his hand and it hit a branch right in front of him, it bounced backwards and just landed softly right on top of his cart. If i hadn't seen it live i wouldn't have believed it.

It was in the MP40 division so playing for cash and the guys on the card were rules junkies. We all said dumb rule but its a rule and moved on.

 

[blake833]

The cart was behind him, he hit a branch on his backswing and it jarred the disc loose, he basically pushed it out of his hand and it hit a branch right in front of him, it bounced backwards and just landed softly right on top of his cart. If i hadn't seen it live i wouldn't have believed it.

It was in the MP40 division so playing for cash and the guys on the card were rules junkies. We all said dumb rule but its a rule and moved on.

If it was less than 5ft or whatever, doesn't that not count as a throw? maybe he was just putting a disc back to get another one

 

[Flick Maniac]

A drop is not a throw either I would argue. I would have given the benefit of the doubt to the player and let him rethrow without penalty. Credits for manning up to take the penalty though.

802.01 Throw
Last updated: Friday, December 31, 2021 - 15:38
A throw is the propulsion and release of a disc in order to change its position.
Each throw that is made as a competitive attempt to change the lie is counted, unless by rule it is disregarded.
For a throw that is disregarded, any penalty throws associated with making that throw are also disregarded. Penalties that are associated with making a throw are those for: out-of-bounds, hazard, missed mandatory, above two meters, stance, marking, taking improper relief, and lost disc.

809.03 Practice Throw
Last updated: Friday, December 31, 2021 - 17:57
A practice throw is any throw that is not made as a competitive attempt to change the lie, except for a throw that is made either to set aside an unused disc or to return a disc to a player and that travels less than five meters in the air. A drop is not a practice throw.
A player receives one penalty throw for making a practice throw; the throw itself is disregarded and not counted.

 

[glassila]

If it was less than 5ft or whatever, doesn't that not count as a throw? maybe he was just putting a disc back to get another one

NO, there is nothing in the rules that says a disc needs to travel 5 feet to be considered a throw.
802.01 A. A throw is the propulsion and release of a disc in order to change its position.

 

[BillFleming]

I do agree with common sense and speed of play, but the discrepancy should be handled somehow. Cant really in good conscience have a rule, and then go "yeah but that doesnt apply here".

If they had been alert to the rules (which I know many players arent and isnt necessarily feasible to always be in a not ideal world) theyd have played a provisional and taken it up with the TD at the end of the round.

Btw does anyone know what the R1 H6 (iirc) misplay was that caused several players to get +2 in their score for the final round, and how many people it affected?

Late to this....but from what I heard and understand is that the spotter gave incorrect information. The spotter told them they could play from where it went OB, but in reality they needed to play from the drop zone.

Spotters are not Tournament Officials....in a way they are just spectators that were tasked to assist the players (some aren't even Certified Rules Officials). The players should have known the rules....but they probably figured the spotter knew the correct thing to do.