2023 LWS at Idlewild

[foxdawg10]

I watched it but was also doing other things so missed the conversation about it aspect evidently.

As a TD I take issue with the "inmates running the asylum" aspect of it to begin with- someone in a position of (supposed) authority struggled with the decision and decided enough is enough. That should have been it right there. There are potential safety issues with wandering around the woods in the dark as well as potential issues with play like simply being unable to find a disc. Your staff has been out there since some time very early in the morning and have to stick around because the players decide not to listen when the round is called for the day. Your spectators are wandering around in the dark woods as well. Your coverage looks like sh*t because it was shot in the dark., etc.

I see it as no different than deciding to continue to play in a lightning delay- just a lesser degree of safety concern.

In a supposedly self-officiated sport there are many decisions that the players get to make which dictate how things go (including enforcing/not enforcing speed of play rules which is partially how they got to that point to begin with)- this simply is not one of them.

Ironically it was the same players slow play that caused this to be an issue in the first place. At which point they received a group warning to speed things up.

I agree with most of your points. As I recall, the only time darkness was an issue was in the wooded part of hole 18. Once the were in the open there was still enough daylight.

The PDGA guidelines for TDs don't specifically mention darkness I don't believe.

The main concern was forcing everyone, players, staff, media, to get to course 2 hours early in the morning, causing a different batch of logistical issues.

I'm ok with the way it played out. The players didn't go rogue. They discussed with tourney staff and received the ok to proceed. If only they didn't play so slow earlier it wouldn't have been an issue

This is the second time in last few weeks they finished in the dark. I don't recall which tourney, but same scenario played out where they finished in the dark due to weather delay.

 

[seedlings]

What's the rule violation for talking and walking slow? In other words, which rule do you think was cited to lead card R2?

 

[Flick Maniac]

Yeah thats what I want to know too. A rule needs to exist, otherwise its more of an urge to play faster.

Falling behind another card is not a rule in the current rulebook AFAIK. Hey, they could all be parking their shots, while your card surfs the schule both sides of the fairway in the deepest pits of Na'ar. As long as none of the shots, no matter how many of them your sorry group needs to take each hole, take up more than 30 sec (or another rule is added to the rulebook) all should be peachy. Well not peachy but certainly no warning, and for subsequent instances, no strokes should be added. Strokes on all the players on the card would be ludicrous.

FWIW they said on Jomez coverage that on hole 18 the camera was put on such settings that it made it look more lighter than it actually was.

 

[@CD-]

Ironically it was the same players slow play that caused this to be an issue in the first place. At which point they received a group warning to speed things up.

I agree with most of your points. As I recall, the only time darkness was an issue was in the wooded part of hole 18. Once the were in the open there was still enough daylight.

The PDGA guidelines for TDs don't specifically mention darkness I don't believe.

The main concern was forcing everyone, players, staff, media, to get to course 2 hours early in the morning, causing a different batch of logistical issues.

I'm ok with the way it played out. The players didn't go rogue. They discussed with tourney staff and received the ok to proceed. If only they didn't play so slow earlier it wouldn't have been an issue

This is the second time in last few weeks they finished in the dark. I don't recall which tourney, but same scenario played out where they finished in the dark due to weather delay.

The relevant portions of the Competition Manual for Suspension of play 1.07. Playing in darkness can be considered impractical and dangerous because spotters/spectators have a much reduced time to see discs and react to them. In theory the lead MPO cards could tee off in the AM around when the FPO field is playing the start of round 3 and wouldn't cause any difference in the time the staff/media get to the course.

1.07.A. If, in the opinion of the Tournament Director, lightning, excessive rain or hazardous conditions exist that make it impractical or dangerous to continue play, the tournament shall be suspended.

1.07.F. The Tournament Director may postpone the incomplete portion of the round for a later date within the scheduled tournament if, in the Tournament Director's opinion, the conditions will not improve or if darkness will fall prior to the projected finish time. (see PDGA Mid-Event Weather Suspension & Cancellation Guidelines Policy)

Mid America Open played up until darkness and then the TD called the round with the lead card completing hole 12 (9 of 14 holes completed for the shortened layout). They postponed play and forced the 3-4 cards worth of MPO players to get up and play out the round in the AM. This was after multiple weather delays throughout the day affecting FPO and MPO fields.

 

[Shallows]

As a TD I take issue with the "inmates running the asylum" aspect of it to begin with- someone in a position of (supposed) authority struggled with the decision and decided enough is enough. That should have been it right there.

Ah, but the players are not inmates. Authority should as much as possible be vested with the gentlemen themselves to adhere to the understood rules and etiquette, within the spirit of the game. They are not pupils or prisoners. This is a key difference in our sport versus traditionally refereed competitions with their coercion and gross heirarchy.

 

[foxdawg10]

The relevant portions of the Competition Manual for Suspension of play 1.07. Playing in darkness can be considered impractical and dangerous because spotters/spectators have a much reduced time to see discs and react to them. In theory the lead MPO cards could tee off in the AM around when the FPO field is playing the start of round 3 and wouldn't cause any difference in the time the staff/media get to the course.


Mid America Open played up until darkness and then the TD called the round with the lead card at completing hole 12 (9 of 14 holes completed for the shortened layout). They postponed play and forced the 3-4 cards worth of MPO players to get up and play out the round in the AM. This was after multiple weather delays throughout the day affecting FPO and MPO fields.

The wording seems to give the TD some leeway, using the wording "in the opinion".

Yes, agreed 2 holes wouldn't have made much difference to staff in the morning. But it did make a 7 hour difference to the players involved.

 

[biscoe]

Ah, but the players are not inmates. Authority should as much as possible be vested with the gentlemen themselves to adhere to the understood rules and etiquette, within the spirit of the game. They are not pupils or prisoners. This is a key difference in our sport versus traditionally refereed competitions with their coercion and gross heirarchy.

Nonsense. Self officiating rules and etiquette has nothing to do with making decisions regarding the structure of the event which is what this case was.

 

[ToddL]

What's the rule violation for talking and walking slow? In other words, which rule do you think was cited to lead card R2?

Competition Manual 3.02 Pace of Play

1. All competitors shall play without undue delay and make every effort to keep up with the group in front of them. Players are expected to quickly move from the completion of one hole to the tee area of the next hole. Any undue delay should not affect the pace of play within the group behind them. Also, while advancing down the fairway, a player shall not unduly delay play by their actions.
2. A player causing undue delays may be issued an excessive time violation by agreement of the playing group or a Tournament Official (see 802.03, Excessive Time).

People seem to forget that this rule exists. It's relatively unchanged for at least the last 15 years.

 

[ru4por]

Ah, but the players are not inmates. Authority should as much as possible be vested with the gentlemen themselves to adhere to the understood rules and etiquette, within the spirit of the game. They are not pupils or prisoners. This is a key difference in our sport versus traditionally refereed competitions with their coercion and gross heirarchy.

Until those decisions have potential impacts on other players [not on their card], safety and the overall results of the event. All of which could have happened and potential did happen here. My main point above was it was bush league. If you want a professional tour......start acting professional.

 

[Flick Maniac]

Competition Manual 3.02 Pace of Play

1. All competitors shall play without undue delay and make every effort to keep up with the group in front of them. Players are expected to quickly move from the completion of one hole to the tee area of the next hole. Any undue delay should not affect the pace of play within the group behind them. Also, while advancing down the fairway, a player shall not unduly delay play by their actions.
2. A player causing undue delays may be issued an excessive time violation by agreement of the playing group or a Tournament Official (see 802.03, Excessive Time).

People seem to forget that this rule exists. It's relatively unchanged for at least the last 15 years.

Thank you. This is what I was looking for.

 

[Shallows]

Until those decisions have potential impacts on other players [not on their card], safety and the overall results of the event.

How's that?

 

[ru4por]

The post production crew were pretty brutal on their assessments of the baskets being used.

 

[geebob]

Ironically it was the same players slow play that caused this to be an issue in the first place. At which point they received a group warning to speed things up.

I agree with most of your points. As I recall, the only time darkness was an issue was in the wooded part of hole 18. Once the were in the open there was still enough daylight.

I followed the lead card on #3-#6 and #16-#18. As far as the slow play, I think there were a number of reasons they fell behind. The biggest, I think, was having three players on the card struggling. Certainly they showed more urgency after the warning, so no issue with that being given. They started three holes back of the chase card and were three holes behind them when the siren went off. Most of the spectators on #16 and #17 had left or followed the chase card to #18 so there were a few dozen people following the group and me packing up my stuff along #16 when the word came that the lead card was playing on.

#17 was the worst in terms of visibility and had there been more than one old guy hiding behind a tree along the right side there would have been a safety issue. The spotters and spectator were asked to shelter from the throws. It was impossible to follow the discs in flight so the spotters had to go by sound to locate them.

 

[DanJon]

Does anyone else feel like maybe some players on the card weren't completely comfortable with continuing?

 

[porkturtle]

Does anyone else feel like maybe some players on the card weren't completely comfortable with continuing?

Could be. I imagine Goose wasn't too giddy after posting a double bogey on 18.

 

[geebob]

Does anyone else feel like maybe some players on the card weren't completely comfortable with continuing?

Absolutely not. The players lobbied to be allowed to finish. They were given very specific guidance: spotters might not be able to track discs so players were responsible for finding their discs, there would be a strict time limit for finding lost discs, no artificial illumination would be allowed on the baskets, and all players on the card had to agree to keep playing or they would have to stop. If anything they were pressured to stop playing. I was pretty close to the players on #16 and #17 baskets, and following them on #18. They all were eager to finish and helped each other spotting discs.

The decision made a lot of sense to me. The disruption of breaking their tournament routine by having to complete their rounds early in the morning would be worth (in my mind) possibly losing a stroke or two by having to play in the dark.

 

[geebob]

Could be. I imagine Goose wasn't too giddy after posting a double bogey on 18.

Have you watched Goose's putting lately? He was incredible from the tee to C1 and could not buy a putt that round. He finished Idlewild 61% in C1 and didn't make a C2. He had a pretty straightforward par putt on #18 that he buzzed past the basket and missed the come-backer. Missed putts from behind #18 can very easily turn into three putts no matter what the conditions.

I thought all four players played remarkably well through the last three holes. Babcock got really unlucky on his tee shot at #16 with a terrible skip, but still saved par. Scott and Buhr made fantastics saves on #18, with Buhr's approach shot as good as any I saw all tournament.