~400' BH and ~325' FH Help

[Dnolff1991]

Wow! After watching ur grip video it appears my grip is incorrect as well, I was holding it like u were originally. I'll have to give the 2nd grip a shot.

Sent from my LG-H931 using Tapatalk

 

[Hoeschel]

I think the answer for me is I've been holding a hammer with the wrong wrist alignment until now :|

The couple times every few years I use one to hit something.

Good tip for SW: Don't assume anyone knows how to do even the simple thing you're relating the throw to correctly.

Ahhhhh thanks! I just realized that i am holding the hammer the way SW is suggesting and you were not. I assumed we were holding it the same way and i was just so confused.

 

[slowplastic]

Well, that was definitely an improvement. I'm not there yet and I can feel it, but it's SO much easier and very fun. I was throwing my normal X-step distances from standstill, and not really trying that hard...it feels like almost no arm or shoulder effort. Just maintain shoulder leverage and the disc just keeps in the air somehow. It's like the % effort I put in vs. disc flight is very far off of what I'm used to. It doesn't even seem that much faster out of hand but it must be, the disc keeps carrying.

With that grip I feel like I have to get "over" the disc and commit to a shot. If I do that then it's nose down. If I throw shots under say 250' then I'm going to have to get used to this. But I think it's related to my balance being off still, then hopefully I'll be nose down on all shots.

So I feel like I'm still behind the plant heel. As well I think I'm again swinging too early still? I feel my right shoulder in constant leverage in the backswing and transition, and feel the right shoulder in leverage moving forward. Then I unload the shot against my front leg. I didn't feel the same left shoulder to front instep leverage that I had been when drilling this, so I think I need to wait longer and get even farther forward before swinging.

Standstill was throwing mids in the 325' range and fairways 350', X-step adding like 25' to fairways and I know I'm not super efficient adapting it. There was a decent amount of wind though, so that messes with things. But the most positive with the wind is I could actually get full flights out of high speed drivers with a 10MPH tailwind, typically that much wind would cause my discs to fade out super early and knock them back to fairway distances. So that is very encouraging.

https://vimeo.com/295275339

 

[billyjacko]

This is the answer Philo gave me when I asked about the thumb and wrist almost 7 years ago. Several other top pros talk about this the same way.

:

Oh man, I really like the bit about pressing the thumb on the inside of the rim. Feels very natural to do, and like I can really hammer on the disc. I'm watching more for this neutral straight wrist action y'all have been discussing, and it makes perfect sense. The collapsing of the wrist is from the weight of the disc as the lower arm angle begins to change directions in the arc. I know HUB has spent time trying to teach that bouncing of the disc through videos like the heavy bottle drill. I think people have been trying to teach this when it's actually a bi-product of good acceleration over a wide arc. HUBs even started threads about pre-loading the wrist using Seppo as an example. I'm watching him, and he has slack in his wrist in the backswing, but it is dead straight through the entire pull until the arc begins.

 

[sidewinder22]

Well, that was definitely an improvement. I'm not there yet and I can feel it, but it's SO much easier and very fun. I was throwing my normal X-step distances from standstill, and not really trying that hard...it feels like almost no arm or shoulder effort. Just maintain shoulder leverage and the disc just keeps in the air somehow. It's like the % effort I put in vs. disc flight is very far off of what I'm used to. It doesn't even seem that much faster out of hand but it must be, the disc keeps carrying.

With that grip I feel like I have to get "over" the disc and commit to a shot. If I do that then it's nose down. If I throw shots under say 250' then I'm going to have to get used to this. But I think it's related to my balance being off still, then hopefully I'll be nose down on all shots.

So I feel like I'm still behind the plant heel. As well I think I'm again swinging too early still? I feel my right shoulder in constant leverage in the backswing and transition, and feel the right shoulder in leverage moving forward. Then I unload the shot against my front leg. I didn't feel the same left shoulder to front instep leverage that I had been when drilling this, so I think I need to wait longer and get even farther forward before swinging.

Standstill was throwing mids in the 325' range and fairways 350', X-step adding like 25' to fairways and I know I'm not super efficient adapting it. There was a decent amount of wind though, so that messes with things. But the most positive with the wind is I could actually get full flights out of high speed drivers with a 10MPH tailwind, typically that much wind would cause my discs to fade out super early and knock them back to fairway distances. So that is very encouraging.

https://vimeo.com/295275339

Yep, you have no balance or posture. You are still coming down over top your front hip, spinning out the rear foot and then reverse pivoting back off the front leg. If you look at your release position compared to mine, you are way behind your front foot, spine in C position and turkey necking forward. Your chest is pointed to the sky which is where your nose up is coming from and crossing the streams with your lower arm/disc across the shoulder plane downward, my chest is level or maybe even downward and my lower arm swings parallel underneath shoulders and elbow/nose down.

In your backswing you are looking up/leaning back and your front shoulder is way higher than rear shoulder, so there's no pendulum there. You are also swaying the rear hip/shoulder back behind your rear foot, instead of turning/clearing rear hip and shoulder targetward/counter-clockwise. Backswing with your front shoulder underneath rear shoulder, pendulum. Your backswing appears to be several different steps, you sway back, then you turn back, then you move forward. My backswing is all one fluid motion, turning back while moving forward.

Need to exaggerate the opposite of what you are doing:

 

[slowplastic]

Thanks for that image markup...it makes my form look terrible and it really helps. With how easy it was feeling today to pop standstill mids 325', and then how bad it looks with the lines all over it...wow good form must be nice to have.

So the first comparison picture in the sequence is a huge help to me. I have been penduluming/swinging the disc/mass below me and using its weight to pull my right shoulder up to where I wanted it to be. If I have the shoulder down like you show I have massive connection feeling compared to before. Like night and day difference...not from trying to keep my shoulder on a rail between my feet like I had just started to, just huge connection the whole time.

In the forward swing I just want to make sure...does the right shoulder stay in the underneath pendulum motion, down under the chin? For most shot angles hyzer to flat-ish, that is? I feel this will help to lead my torso down and forward into the swing instead of that impact back C shape I have.

I understand what you're saying with my back hip movement vs. clearing and moving targetward. I lost that feeling in these throws for sure and I know when I have done it in the past it has good results.

As for the T-rex arm, are you referring to my shoulder angle at that point? Or how my shoulder is very far back of my brace foot so my release point is farther back than yours? If it's shoulder angle I am guessing it's just a result of the positions I have been in until that point?

Finally in this clip of McBeth, he's throwing a very high anhyzer. I see he's still loading right shoulder under left and under chin in backswing, but can you explain how his shoulders work in the forward swing? Just to make sure I understand how the right shoulder will move in hyzer vs. flat-ish vs. anhyzer.

Swinging a hammer this way I feel way more like the counterweight of a trebuchet being set up in the backswing, turning or being pinned in a tight way after leverage from rear foot, then releasing the weight. Compared to using the form in the video clip, which felt like it was a much more linear turn back trying to position shoulder in leverage and then linear but extended hammer motion.

 

[slowplastic]

I took poor video with indoor swings, and that shoulder under in the backswing to keep the tension is good. That pinning against the plant leg to trebuchet swing weight feeling is looking like the hip clearing syncing with the swing, and I get the bowler rear leg counter and extension like Eagle/Will. This could be good.

 

[sidewinder22]

Sounds like you are getting it. The swing always feels the same pendulum of the shoulders, only balance changes your tilted spiral, your dynamic balance makes it feel the same for all shots. So if you tilted the McBeth video to his trajectory/swing plane, it's the same. IMO this is one of the few McBeth vids people should analyze or try to copy. Free-wheeling swing.


The t-rex arm is both shoulders angle or lever and shoulder collapsed behind the front foot/swing center in standstill. Forward tilted balance on front leg should help fix it. Lee Travino move chasing the trajectory with rear shoulder/arm over front foot should help.


Stokely pendulum underneath on anhyzer:


IMO Brinster has the best form, disc is always on perfect plane and balance!

 

[Hoeschel]

HUBs even started threads about pre-loading the wrist using Seppo as an example. I'm watching him, and he has slack in his wrist in the backswing, but it is dead straight through the entire pull until the arc begins.

I think the cocked wrist is just a means of changing the center of mass of the disc/hand to be closer to the body, so that it is more natural for it to move inwards at the start of the pull. There is no point in doing that if you your last step is diagonal to your run-up (Simon) or if you swing back wide (Schultz) because the disc will naturally have that direction. But with a straight reachback and runup like Seppo has you get more inwards momentum from a cocked wrist. Same goes for Ricky, who also keeps everything straight and also cocks his wrist.

 

[slowplastic]

I thought I knew the feel but I don't. Didn't click. With an X-step added my poor brace/shoulder/arm slot is so obvious to me so I keep working from stand still, but at least adding in an X-step my distance is better and easier. Was consistently in the 370' range with fairways with X-step when I had the nose down, and got a Teebird to 390' on a pure line so that felt good.

I was feeling a later and firmer leverage off the rear foot, but I want to make sure I'm not going too late. This is the first video. I feel like off the rear instep I'm squishing the knee/thigh to the brace to compress my body, these shots felt very efficient but I wanted to ask before keeping up with this feeling...I don't want to cause a two footed torque or anything. So is this more correct for leverage or too late off rear foot? It feels like leverage/pressure forward within my body rather than abandoning my body weight to gravity to just drop.

My brace hip keeps swinging out to the right, I am not getting onto the brace and it's more apparent in my X-steps with the added speed. I'm just not landing on the leg right.

I tried the extreme hyzer swing plane, that's the second video. I felt like I was balancing my chin over my front leg while doing the practice swings and the swing itself....it felt like I didn't get that jutting forward with shoulders on follow through because my head was already set/balanced. But, I feel like there was little/no weight shift either because I feel like my head was in the same spot the whole time.

The swing plane with hand below elbow looks better than any other situation I feel like in this shot, but I couldn't ramp up the power. After looking at other video, when I tried to do this flatter I was jamming my lead shoulder again like old times.

So I think my main problems are:

-not getting to/onto front hip in correct balance, it gets tilted to right out of the way rather than me ending up on top of it, and I shoot forward

-I can't keep that hand/disc under elbow swing...I think I actually have to commit to a higher follow through/arc so that it is natural to keep my forearm and wrist aligned as when I follow through with a hammer. I think I'm letting the follow through happen in whatever form, and because I'm not trying to maintain follow through integrity my swing plane is allowed to do as it pleases along the way? For example my follow through is linear to downward, whereas it seems like pro follow throughs go more upward like a baseball bat path? Could this be what I'm doing to have this happen all the time?

https://vimeo.com/295471456

https://vimeo.com/295471869

 

[slowplastic]

I typically throw "flat" and slight hyzer shots on the course, and I think I try to throw the disc out there flat by following through real flat. It's clear in all of these routines that they follow through upwards, to match the shoulder plane.

So my flat follow through I think tells the arm to swing high to low, whereas the low to high follow through should keep the hand/disc tracking under my elbow. This feels more like the arc that I use to follow through with a baseball bat, I just need to trust I can still throw "flat" with this follow through.

 

[billyjacko]

lol, I love that you used one of the infamous foot fault throws for your example.

 

[sidewinder22]

I thought I knew the feel but I don't. Didn't click. With an X-step added my poor brace/shoulder/arm slot is so obvious to me so I keep working from stand still, but at least adding in an X-step my distance is better and easier. Was consistently in the 370' range with fairways with X-step when I had the nose down, and got a Teebird to 390' on a pure line so that felt good.

I was feeling a later and firmer leverage off the rear foot, but I want to make sure I'm not going too late. This is the first video. I feel like off the rear instep I'm squishing the knee/thigh to the brace to compress my body, these shots felt very efficient but I wanted to ask before keeping up with this feeling...I don't want to cause a two footed torque or anything. So is this more correct for leverage or too late off rear foot? It feels like leverage/pressure forward within my body rather than abandoning my body weight to gravity to just drop.

My brace hip keeps swinging out to the right, I am not getting onto the brace and it's more apparent in my X-steps with the added speed. I'm just not landing on the leg right.

I tried the extreme hyzer swing plane, that's the second video. I felt like I was balancing my chin over my front leg while doing the practice swings and the swing itself....it felt like I didn't get that jutting forward with shoulders on follow through because my head was already set/balanced. But, I feel like there was little/no weight shift either because I feel like my head was in the same spot the whole time.

The swing plane with hand below elbow looks better than any other situation I feel like in this shot, but I couldn't ramp up the power. After looking at other video, when I tried to do this flatter I was jamming my lead shoulder again like old times.

So I think my main problems are:

-not getting to/onto front hip in correct balance, it gets tilted to right out of the way rather than me ending up on top of it, and I shoot forward

-I can't keep that hand/disc under elbow swing...I think I actually have to commit to a higher follow through/arc so that it is natural to keep my forearm and wrist aligned as when I follow through with a hammer. I think I'm letting the follow through happen in whatever form, and because I'm not trying to maintain follow through integrity my swing plane is allowed to do as it pleases along the way? For example my follow through is linear to downward, whereas it seems like pro follow throughs go more upward like a baseball bat path? Could this be what I'm doing to have this happen all the time?

Man, the hyzer shot is glaring over the top. You massively tilt your spine targetward in the backswing without the front foot moving counter upright like Kick the Can. Your front foot just comes up and down in the same place almost. My front moves almost six feet back and forth in order to do that kind of tilt. Your front leg swing and spine should match tilt/dynamic upright. If your spine tilts targetward your front foot must move away from target, same thing mirrored forward, front foot moving targetward should increase spine tilt away from target. The way you pick up your front foot, instead of it being pulled up from the backswing throws your balance off.

Your rear foot always looks like it's squishing the bug or spinning out to me. Your rear heel always ends up behind your toes, should be driven forward of toes and remain ahead of them like superman/swivel chair. Do some lefty bowling.

Door Frame Tug of War:

 

[slowplastic]

That hyzer video was a swing plane experiment trying to do that shoulder exchange thing like that guy does in the wing down hyzer video you posted a bit back. The non-existent shift felt weird but I felt like my shoulders didn't cause me to jut forward...and your explanation of my spine angle makes total sense. It's not how my normal shot feels at all, but it also maybe showed me how to follow through high/with my shoulder plane for next time out there.

I think my leverage problem is from walking through my swing indoors. I think I am trying to leverage off the rear instep, but I'm adding some rotation to my foot/knee subconsciously because of the surfaces I'm on. When I do the kick the can motion and just focus on plantar flexion off a grippy surface it is noticeable. As well I think that's why I am over the top, because I'm trying to maintain or land in balance on the front leg rather than have it slide forward or give out a bit.

I guess I need to get more "into" the front hip? It's kind of scary feeling at slower speed on carpet/socks because it feels like my foot won't release...but I do get to the outer edge of my foot and there is some rotation. I can definitely tell the difference between this vs. landing on the hip and having it get out of the way, like I have been doing.

 

[sidewinder22]

One Leg Drill. Just stand there completely balanced on the front leg and swing your arm over the foot, the foot should get pulled through into pivot from the swing momentum.

 

[slowplastic]

I'm really trying to follow instructions. Did a bunch of one leg throws and could feel a different balance point. Tried to be in the brace hip right, braced against the foot, rather than on top of the hip.

I still get a jut forward, but things look more promising. I don't know how to fix it from here, I don't know if I just don't go laterally forward enough before the swing/rotation or if I turn back too extremely tilted or what. But I know I'm not quite in balance.

There was too much to think of to think about rear foot leverage, I just didn't think about the backswing at all. What it felt like to me is I was taking the rear shoulder underneath my chin and to the front instep, like a down and in move, to get forward and balanced to my hip. I felt like I was on top of the disc and my shoulders more than before.

I realize in this one leg video I had more pressure on my rear toes than I intended, since my front heel comes up. But the good news of that is I lifted my front foot because of the backswing rather than at a time of my choosing. From one leg I was throwing mids in 275' range and neutral fairways 310-325' with firm throws. I'm not sure exactly what goal distance should be.

I included an X-step, I realize that it makes the issues more elongated...but I think this is the best/most forward balance I've had during the steps themselves. Focusing on getting to that one leg position with my shoulders, and maintaining that same positioning during the entire X-step seems to keep me from tipping back and forth like I typically do.

I'm throwing too nose neutral and slightly nose up on a lot of throws, discs would have that sideways lazy fade. I also could feel the palm pressure on disc release/hit especially with putters and mids, but it would give me a micro OAT upon release...I'd feel the palm push and then hear a THHK and the micro wobbles would disappear after 30'. Not enough to kill discs but enough that they'd turn initially then continue the flight. So I think I'm closer but it's not all synced up.

https://vimeo.com/295695993

https://vimeo.com/295696118

https://vimeo.com/295696223

 

[sidewinder22]

Set up totally upright on front leg/hip, not behind it! This should FEEL EXTREMELY WEIRD to you, really really upright, or maybe even feel over the top in the setup/pump! You can't be over the top if you can maintain upright balance forever in that position. I could stand in that position relaxed all day in setup and pick up the rear foot, in your setup your leg and core muscles will be tight and burning out fast or start collapsing or you will fall off balance in that seated posture behind your hip especially if you pick up your rear foot.

You look scared to really pump/swing or extend your arm/disc out away from you. Our feet are doing exactly opposite things in One Leg Drill. Front foot should not move/de-weight until after release. You are spinning out your front foot toes and going 100% weight back as front heel goes airborne and turns without striding the whole foot forward. Stride has no place in this drill, nor a specific distance target, target goal is limitless effortlessness. Your front foot then again spins out before release compensating for going over the top and trying to create weightshift and torque instead of maintaining balance and leverage.

Your rear foot never spins in the backswing, you are trying to shift your weight back from in front of it. I am spinning out my rear foot on purpose, so no weight shifts back downward to it, it goes back up around forward from behind me and pulls the arm/disc taut in backswing like ball on string.

Camera from behind tee will show your nose to right side of tee in seated/collapsed posture behind heel, instead of upright athletic posture nose over toes with butt counter.

Note how my setup and finish position are basically identical.

 

[slowplastic]

Thanks for the detailed markup. That shows me why I couldn't improve my balance from where I was starting. That level of detail is appreciated as it really shows me some things differently.

This video will hopefully show where I'm at with this. I really feel in this balance that my sternum has a vector out of it, and that it is braced on the front foot. This keeps me more upright on the brace, with that Climo feeling chest position almost.

I was completely mistaken about the role of the rear leg in the throw apparently. I thought it was to drive forward/show the weight shift, and that the recoil at the hips causes that momentary backwards movement. But what I'm seeing and feeling is that the rear leg actually extends back a bit, more continually, to provide leverage while the front arm is swinging and extending? Is that right? This is also why I guess I have been driving the rear leg and impacting/bracing the pelvis or hips or lower spine. You can easily see the pro's move forward and impact, so that's what I thought I should feel.

The video should show enough about where to go from here I hope. I see some differences between this and what SW does in the one leg video a bit, but I don't really understand enough to know what is important what isn't I guess.

https://vimeo.com/295874636

https://vimeo.com/295874636^^^^^URL

 

[sidewinder22]

Toes should go down when heel goes airborne and counter swing on opposite of center.

Camera view from behind tee will show my forward athletic tilt over toes toward left tee pad side. You are tilted back toward right tee pad side behind heel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mpp7ZFLHK90&t=1m5s

 

[slowplastic]

Great explanation. I feel the difference already.

From the foot to hips I feel the same, but I'm tilted at the waist slightly more so my nose feels forward like 3" and over my toes. This difference makes my rear leg turn with me around my brace leg.

Now in the swing I feel like the front/top of the left shoulder is braced against instep, and I can feel my rear foot leave the ground very differently. I feel that heel first feeling, but moreso it feels like my foot extends so the top of my foot faces the ground. First time I've felt that extended ankle feeling with the top of the foot over the ground and then the foot raising up. It also feels like my toes have way longer leverage against the ground, but it's a forward leverage rather than a turning leverage...and also not pushing my knee directly like before...just feeling like leverage in general. This all feels more like what I expected a good motion would feel like, and it's just happening automatically.

Does this sound right, or would it be helpful to post another swing with a hammer?