~400' BH and ~325' FH Help

[slowplastic]

I think my arm gets pulled forward at a weird time or my front shoulder isn't leveraged forward and through smoothly to pull the arm on the natural plane.

I agree with how my hand or disc looks too flat or something, and I'm not intending on doing that. My grip isn't any different than when I'd been throwing nose down more easily, and in those better shots I see my hand looking a bit more "on top" of the disc at the hit or pronating through the hit and release a bit more. But I think it's related to torso/shoulder tilt, and in these shots having my shoulder jam up my arm slightly.

 

[Mocheez]

I think my arm gets pulled forward at a weird time or my front shoulder isn't leveraged forward and through smoothly to pull the arm on the natural plane.

I agree with the bolded part. It looks like you need to get your weight further forward into the plant. Your head is centered closer to your rear hip instead of over front hip.

Shoulder leads elbow forward of hip. Use your shoulder to battering ram the door down.

 

[slowplastic]

I agree with the bolded part. It looks like you need to get your weight further forward into the plant. Your head is centered closer to your rear hip instead of over front hip.

Oh that's a great way of looking at it. When paused in the same spot, my shoulder is barely in front of the hip. I just looked at multiple pro's and you're right about their head being basically over the hip. I never noticed it was that far forward.

 

[Mocheez]

If you just think about trying to knock someone over with the back of your right shoulder, you will automatically get your weight further ahead.

 

[sidewinder22]

Looks like you are folded over the front hip / in a position you could not maintain forever. Your front hip is slightly behind your ankle and your shoulders are more open to target and chest more downward/tipped over top hip.

First frame your rear knee is collapsing and rear hip going away from target and tipping back away, instead of bracing upright and moving your left hip toward the target counterclockwise/hogan move/butt wipe.

Second frame you made a massive lateral move of your pelvis late in the stride instead of leading the stride and a more compact shift.

 

[sidewinder22]

Your pump is also too late/out of sequence with x-step and cross/hop is covering way too much distance and landing tipped back on rear foot.

You are pumping too late or out of sequence and not planting in dynamic upright on the front foot. Your front shoulder isn't swinging forward enough over the knee/toes(left teepad side / athletic forward tilted balance) and releasing everything out forward to target, your shoulder is going rotationally around behind your front heel and swing releasing to the right.

You are taking too many steps.

1. Start with feet together and relaxed natural stance lateral to target, and your arm/disc held straight out to target away from you so upper arm should be like 160 degrees wide from shoulders that are basically inline to target.

2. Keep arm/disc held wide out to target as your right foot strides laterally forward from feet together. Foot should be like around 30-45 degrees open from perpendicular.

3. Keep arm/disc held wide out to target as your left foot crosses behind and toward the right tee side slightly(out of the way of right foot to stride straight thru forward) and foot and butt starts turning away. Rear foot should be like 30-45 degrees away from perpendicular so your feet are like 60-90 degrees open from each other.

4. Start backswing as you land on the left foot and start striding right foot straight into plant. Your feet need to stride underneath you like landing from a fall/dunk. You are striding them out away from you and landing awkwardly.

 

[slowplastic]

Thanks, all that was really helpful. Got out today, focused on the left hip leveraging toward the target as I load the left leg either in standstill or X-step...moving the left butt closer to the target rather than turning into the hip internally. I also adjusted my right arm pump, keeping it forward to start and for longer. Both these thing really helped. I could throw nose down very consistently again and putters/mids were going well. There's a 335' hole with about a 5' elevation drop, and I birdied it with a putter for the first time. Drive was probably only 315'ish but I felt like I knew I could throw that shot when I was on the teepad, and the mids were cooking past the pin easily.

My right shoulder still isn't getting far enough forward. Could the plant foot drifting to the left of the teepad slightly cause the shoulder getting blocked out every time? If I try to really get forward it feels awkward and like my sequence and arm swing suffers so I think I'm fundamentally off on something still, I can't just "force it" to happen.

I also know I'm gliding too far on my X-step hop with the left foot behind step, that'll be something to think about next time.

Here's a standstill that I think improves upon some of the things in those side by side images. Just trying to figure out why I'm having issues getting laterally forward enough.

https://vimeo.com/340596577

 

[sidewinder22]

Bugs me how your front foot leaves the ground flat footed and flared open with front femur not turned past perpendicular. If you push your backswing from the front instep your front heel should leave the ground first and your front femur should rotate away from target with pelvis turning away and rear knee and heel will "kick inward" from the internal torque and foot will now stride forward closed. You are turning away too late after your front foot starts going forward.

 

[slowplastic]

Oh that is really intuitive. I've always known I just lift my front leg at some point rather than it being pulled up naturally, but doing this makes it feel very consistent. Should be easier to be set up to land toe-heel for the plant too.

I'm pretty sure I naturally turn into my FH backswing like that but had never thought about it or noticed it.

 

[slowplastic]

Adjusted my swing plane feel and would like thoughts on how to keep it nose down. I realize my footwork is a bit wide with the inbehind step and my backswing should be a little later, etc. I'll keep working on that.

But this is a major change to swing feel and how I feel pronate through the disc. The only way I could keep the nose down today was to turn the disc vertically at the backswing transition like in the thumbnail for this video, then the disc feels like it naturally unwinds or turns into the hit so the nose comes down. If I try to keep the disc more "on plane" I was throwing nose up every time. I would get surprisingly good carry for being nose up, but I couldn't figure out how to get the nose down. Seeing as GG and Eagle do this disc turn, and I know it's been talked about, this isn't necessarily a bad thing but it was the only way it would work for me.

When I did get this turning feel on the disc right it worked well. One putter I threw at like 60% power went 300ish on a hyzer, it was the easiest putter throw I've ever had. So I feel this is the right direction...just confused about nose angle at the release point or if I'm not quite right here.

https://vimeo.com/343982425

 

[slowplastic]

So I know in more extreme/noticeable examples this disc turn vertical has been talked about as the "suitcase grip". But the more I watch video of any good thrower, they all turn the disc down at some point in the backswing. Somewhere from 45-90 degrees away from the disc's final intended release angle. From what I felt today, it felt like turning the disc downward during the backswing made me feel the opposite edge of the disc's weight, and then as I moved forward I could feel this edge about to turn and level out and then fling out still being down as the nose. I guess it felt like this edge was down and heavy in the backswing so I could keep it down as it flings out. That doesn't make all that much sense but that's what it felt like. And if I tried to make it happen I didn't throw all that far, but if I just let the sequence happen and the disc turn back naturally then it all worked out.

For example take the classic lead card driving video we've all seen countless times. Look at the disc at the backswing transition...for everyone but Feldberg you can see the underside of the flight plate. Feldberg's disc still isn't on the exact "clean plane" that it would be "expected" to be on. Then compare this all to the hit point and how much hyzer they all throw with.

Each of them have put the disc through at least 45 degrees of angle change by the hit point. My definition of 0 degrees would have each of them with the disc well above their palm in the top of the backswing, with us clearly able to see the flight plate.

 

[sidewinder22]

Going up to the top of the backswing they are all supinating/externally rotating against gravity pulling the disc and arm down, otherwise the disc would be straight down at the top of the backswing. Watch how Seppo's arm/disc rotates throughout the backswing and pendulums all the way around in a big wave.

 

[slowplastic]

What you're showing at the 3-4ish minute part of the video is exactly what I was feeling. The disc just naturally rotates "back" to flat-ish and I feel like my thumb wants to push the disc forward to that downward angle.

Is this rotation pretty important for you to feel that you can get the nose down?

This is the most clear video of the old "thumb push" and "key turn" stuff that was on DGR. But I'm excited that I felt it on my own and then you showed this video that really confirms what seemed natural from this swing plane style. I'll keep working with this instead of trying to avoid it, as I can see that pretty much every player does this to an extent or an extreme.

It was so strange how the disc angle would just work out when done right, and I could feel it wanted a little bit of guidance on the way there....but at the same time I couldn't just concentrate on that turning feeling or else it wouldn't make it happen at that natural point anymore. It'll take a little getting used to. But that putter throw alone showed me the potential. Of course it's not just this motion but the fact that my arm plane is different.

 

[slowplastic]

Just to ask too...do you feel like a supination through...like on the way forward from the "elbow forward" position it almost feels like I want to supinate to an upright hand position but not necessarily roll the wrist. I'm certainly not rolling the wrist like beginners do with forced annies, but it more feels like a supination to "snap" the disc back to flat/level with my intended release angle. There isn't really a weight to it because I'm not pulling the disc past where it wants to go, it feels like the supination pops the disc to where it "wants" to be.

 

[sidewinder22]

No I don't really feel it. I'm not trying to supinate and it's not supinated, it will supinate back to neutral(Address Position of the Hit/Release) from releasing/springing/twirling around from the burst of inertia. I'm not really thinking about the wrist, it's just holding tension to the weight of the disc to the rest of the arm/body, like bench press with dumbbells. The wrist is just remaining neutral to how the body is moving against the disc. It's the same thing pitching, your wrist just reacts to the way your body is moving forward and weight/inertia of the ball lagging back.

I feel that the internal shoulder rotation through the power pocket/center of gravity into the hit is what gives the power to push the disc out using the whole body like punching or bench press extension with dumbbells in each hand where the arms rotate. It's not really rotating from the wrist, it's rotating from the shoulder loading the whole arm/disc into the pec and lat into powerful position to push out away and ready for the blowback from the disc/hit.

What most people struggle to realize with "flat swing plane" is how the whole body is slinging forward from back foot to front foot and center of gravity moving up/down and changing tilt/tilted twirl of the torso through the entire swing, so there has to be articulations of the whole arm and disc happening to even attempt some kind of "flat swing plane". No disc golfer or pitcher spins in place without linear momentum for a flat swing plane. The Hammer Thrower is not spinning in place, they are spinning forward to create a bigger twirl. There is a big twirl happening because of the forward momentum of the lower body being braced and sending the upper body forward into rotation/twirl from the braced front leg. The catapult or pole vault effect.

People need to stop thinking about disc golf as two-handed swings like batting and golf where the spine doesn't "appear" to change tilt nearly as much as one-handed swings or throws or pitching. Pitcher's don't try to rotate from the back foot, they are just trying to move forward laterally and there will be some natural rotation from the rear foot just like walking. This is just pitching submarine backhand and landing more closed to release/catapult the front shoulder/arm/disc forward instead of the rear shoulder/arm/ball.

 

[slowplastic]

Yeah I think I'm on board with all of this. I can't make my body do it yet properly but I'm really feeling it when swinging objects and seeing it in every single video. It's definitely an advanced thing to think about which is why there might be confusion/pushback, but at the same time it seems so fundamental to a proper hit point. I can also feel blood rush to my fingers if I swing with an open hand, which I've never had happen before like this.

I can feel what you mean by you're just rotating the arm into a powerful position at the hit...it feels so natural when I walk through this or practice swing through it. The forearm/wrist want to pronate when I move to my centre so I stay leveraging the arm, then as I extend away they supinate back to neutral and this is the hit point you want to end up at naturally. It's the same thing if I think about my lead/bottom hand on a baseball bat...just the bat is round so I never have had to think about it rotating on its own axis to the same extent. A golf club though...that head goes way off plane and snaps back right before the ball. And I trust this because I started hitting balls at 4 even though I don't golf anymore.

I think my brain just won't let me throw with the forearm/wrist below my elbow with the proper plane maintained, because I'm trying to throw "flat" relative to the ground or my line. Yet I can feel the increased leverage when I practice swing. Should I practice spike hyzers to try this plane? Should I just try to throw with the disc at my belly button to make sure my forearm stays on plane with the upper arm?

I'm just getting this continued disconnection at my elbow as my hand/forearm rise up above that joint. I know what to do, I can feel the leverage when drilling it, but my body won't let me throw a disc like that. It's only been a session or so though, but the nice thing is when I throw the disc I feel like I've got more in the tank that isn't making it to the disc. I can feel that missing transfer of power in these.

Oh I put a few blue dots on that Wiggins image where it feels to me the nose of the disc is...does this seem right? This is what it's feeling like to me with this disc turn, and where the of the disc will pop out to end up being down.

 

[sidewinder22]

Yeah nose is there about. I just focus on my thumb, it controls everything with the disc. Thumb pointed at target line apex, then nose is going to be pointed line apex.

Something like Banger GTs and Comets are the best way to learn this IMO. Flippy drivers like Roadrunners and 150g Bosses.

I prefer to swing more like a pendulum back and forth because it flattens everything out more than bending everything in and out. The angles are much less extreme than the Seppo way which IMO introduces a lot more variable and harder on joints.

 

[slowplastic]

Yeah that first shot you have really illustrates how your forearm is lower than the elbow, and how you're "over" that arm as it's coming through. I've never thrown a shot with that little hyzer but the disc coming across my navel. I'll give it a try with less stable discs like that next time and just try to be "over" the shot or over the forearm/wrist.

With the nose angle, even when you address the shot at 1:05 I can see how it looks nose up until the last instant when the opposite side, which is lower, swings out and becomes the nose.

I'm feeling all of this and coming to all of these conclusions based on swings/drills so I know I'm getting it, just need to make it happen on the course instead of feeling like I need to make the disc go straight/flat by making my forearm come across flat.

 

[slowplastic]

Is this it?

If I put any more power or backswing or anything on it, I would lose this feel and go to a hybrid of this and my normal swing plane...and with any actual power I would go back to my old ways.

These feel like very soft putter throws, I wasn't thinking about body mechanics or anything but it looks ok...all I could think of was getting to that forward hit point with my thumb/hand facing forward at the target and being over the disc. These were still carrying like 250' like this but like I said...any more power or backswing and I wouldn't be able to get back to the same spot.

It felt very easy to throw upshots like this though, I had more confidence in that awkward 150-200' range than I ever have with my BH. But sometimes they'd sail 50'+ deep.

https://vimeo.com/344419002

 

[slowplastic]

So after watching these throws of mine some more I could figure out how it feels, and I can get to this form consistently with levers in hand.

Here's the thing.

It FEELS LIKE PUTTING

I mean look at this:

Basically in my putt my right/lead shoulder is lower and ahead of my spine and back shoulder. I leverage to the hit point from my rear leg, swing the arm up, and feel how I can pop through the disc. Any effort I use my rear leg for is to pop the disc more.

If I just add more rotational load from my right shoulder back to my rear foot, then I can still come forward to this exact same point. And at some range of power it starts feeling more like a throw than a putt.

If I turn farther back then it starts looking like a backswing and my arm rotates and the disc turns a bit differently.

But if I always focus on this putting leverage kind of feel, I never stride too far in the X-step shuffle, or tip too far back or anything. I have an end goal and know where to get to, and it feels like my lead shoulder is forward and down the whole time. I'm not trying to get my butt forward or turn crazy far back or anything...just trying to add to this forward leveraged point that I'll end up with.

Thoughts anyone?