A few vids for critique

[ReDisculous]

Your weight is still too centered throughout your throw, It isn't far enough back at reachback, or far enough forward at the end of your throw. As JR said, getting your weight forward has nothing to do with leaning. You want to be balanced above your left foot at reachback, and right foot through the pivot.

If you insist on using a runup when you practice, try to take a longer crossover step (push off harder with your right leg and reach further behind you with your left, you may have to get a little lower to the ground to pull it off), and a shorter plant step. This will put you more over that rear foot when it lands, netting some more forward momentum into the plant, and make it easier to get your weight forward when it needs to be. You're already developing a pivot hop step when you runup, which is good go with it. If you haven't seen Feldbergs video on that, you might want to check it out.

One of the things that really jumps out at me is the way your left foot is already dragging behind you , when it needs to still be firmly on the ground, pushing your hips forward to aid/initiate a strong follow through. I could be wrong but I think that means you burned up all your hip power earlier in the throw, and your upper boddy is pulling your lower body around, when it needs to be the other way around.

There's a couple key concepts missing from your throw, and they're just not something that you'll stumble across randomly practicing in the field unless you've got a sports background or a lot of natural ability, of which I have neither. I had to practice for ages to incorporate them into my throw, which looked similar to yours a couple years ago.

I already basically posted this same thing in another thread but I'll see if I do a better job of explaining it this time. Check this thread out for original content: http://www.discgolfreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=16139&start=165

The short version is goes something like this.

Simply planting from full reachback(1), and NOT trying to twist or turn or do anything but shift your weight, will turn your hips and shoulders 90 degrees, generating enough momentum for you to sling your arm all the way out to the right side(2-4). Notice how the hips are not leading, and the shoulders do not rotate as the disc goes across the chest. Keep in mind that in frame 4 (this is where your foot is trailing behind)you need to be in position with your lower body PUSH the hips around/forward with the rear leg (think of them being on a hinge with your right leg/hip). 4-5 is where you should feel the big coil/uncoil, which is greatly aided by your weight going forward. This is what lets you accelerate into/through the direction change of the arm, which is what really throws the disc, which gets a great illustration on page 3 of this thread http://www.discgolfreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=24903



You're making progress, keep at it. I hope this helps.

 

[sidewinder22]

Sorry but much of that info is misguided/misinterpreted. His weight is not centered at all dynamically which is the main problem. He is trying to reachback too far with the upper body (or trying too shift his weight back too far), instead of pivoting his whole body backward maintaining good posture of the spine and balance. Once you lose that balance and posture in the backswing the rest of the throw is done fore and he gets his weight stuck back instead of transferring forward correctly. The spine shouldn't sway back and forth from reachback through the finish too much, you want a tight axis to pivot back and forth through to maximize torque efficiency and end lever speed.

Weight transfer and forward momentum are not quite the same thing. Weight transfer is more of what happens through gravity, up and down, and though compression through the ground like a centripetal pump. Johnny Miller calls the first move in ball golf a gravity move. You can have all the forward momentum in the world, but never transfer your weight through the shot. Weight transfer would be a measure like putting two bathroom scales under your feet. Forward momentum alone over the scales could produce maybe a 100% reading your body weight assuming you were able to maintain balance and posture which requires stopping your forward momentum balanced on one leg to get that reading or it will only read 100% weight for a split second. If you jump up and land balanced on the scales you will get a increasingly higher weight reading according to how high you jumped off the scales that then equal more than your body weight coming back down until your momentum bounces back up through the ground and then past your dynamic center of gravity(Once your weight has bounced past your dynamic center of gravity, you are virtually weightless and able to pivot the front foot effortlessly and it just happens by being balanced dynamically). Think about that...your weight on the front scale can be over 100% your body weight longer than just a forward movement over the scale which might get you 100%, and you still could still have weight on the rear scale with the rear foot pushing through the shot.

So from the backswing the rear leg can have more than own body weight on it from pushing up/hopping, as you are adding g force to the scale to lift your weight or raise your center of gravity vertically. Then landing on the forward foot you should be able to get that same reading of over 100% body weight landing balanced on the front scale. Adding forward momentum to that and getting that same vertical weight transfer requires you to be braced and balanced from the rear foot to the front foot through the spine with good posture. Otherwise if you don't brace properly through the sides, your forward momentum will just slid over the scale and reduce weight transfer, or redirect elsewhere.

If you squat over the rear leg without an upward move that extends your weight or center of gravity up before the top of the backswing, your lower center of gravity then limits weight transfer available to the front foot/side. This is why you will often see a hop in the backswing and always a lowering of the body/head through the hit with the top throwers. Weight assistance to the throw happens more up and down through centripetal pump increasing rotational speed(like pumping your legs up and down on a swing to go faster/higher), rather than linearly forward. Forward momentum helps generate inertia and dictate the trajectory.

 

[JR]

The plant step of a top javelin thrower lands like he were standing in place with that single leg and he weighed over a 1000 kilos. You do generate more power by leaning back a lot in the reach back and shifting that weight back to front to being upright for the foot pivot. It is a matter of bracing the left leg landing in the x step to be able to shift upright from the momentum. Once the plant step has landed and you need to start the foot pivot the left leg pushes forward. So you can have your cake and eat it too by shifting back to front and pivoting properly as long as you time things right.

 

[CaddyJeff]

Okay so, got some practice in today, made a few videos, this is the first. You can see the sun flare in the background, and it only gets worse as the sun continues to descend, so you cannot really see anything in the other videos. However, I did a lot of slow motion throws to warm up and try to work on mechanics and there are a few slow throws I do at the beginning(I would edit these vids, but that takes time and it takes forever to upload to youtube).

So today was one of my most successful days. I definitely threw the furthest I have ever thrown, but more importantly I was consistent and much more accurate than usual.

I also see where I still have some bad habits(lazy weight transfer, stiff upper body, slow SNAP), but I can see a lot of things I have improved on just from correct mechanics practice. My toe-heel pivot is one of those things that I don't have to think about anymore. In most of the throws I did not hold the heel spin for the entire follow through because I was ripping the grass up in little circles all over the sideline of the soccer fields(its that thin, shitty grass).

Lazy throws until about 1:50

Longest throw @2:24 I walked off about 360'



PS-I will try to put a bit more power in my throws next time and see if the weight transfer thing will come naturally.

Again, I am grateful to have found such a helpful community, thanks again!

 

[sidewinder22]

And again! Can see some progress, but still just need to keep working on more of the same things. Your front heel is spinning out, instead of pivoting. As is your rear foot. You need to hold your balance over the rear foot better and longer before transferring it forward. You are trying to push from your rear heel, which doesn't really engage the hips. Stay on your rear toes! Also let the disc come to your chest from pure momentum instead of bringing the disc to your chest with your arm, then you actively throw. You might also want to try a pre-swing and work your body around the disc like Feldy to help with balance and rhythm.

 

[sidewinder22]

The plant step of a top javelin thrower lands like he were standing in place with that single leg and he weighed over a 1000 kilos. You do generate more power by leaning back a lot in the reach back and shifting that weight back to front to being upright for the foot pivot. It is a matter of bracing the left leg landing in the x step to be able to shift upright from the momentum. Once the plant step has landed and you need to start the foot pivot the left leg pushes forward. So you can have your cake and eat it too by shifting back to front and pivoting properly as long as you time things right.

A javelin throw is also overhanded as opposed to a backhand, so there's some differences in leverages through the ground and body. Shifting weight back in an overhanded throw is much easier to maintain posture and balance throughout the throw. In a backhand throw I wouldn't suggest shifting weight backwards much except in a standstill, but I'd say it's a pivoting transfer of weight to the rear foot, rather than an actual shifting backward.

 

[JR]

I gave the javelin throw as an example of forces involved and the need to brace. Weight shifting from a long leaning back at the reach back is useful for maximum distance shots. Not good for accuracy and consistency in approach drives and shorter shots. The weight shift needs to be passive from the momentum in a direct line back to upright movement. Only then you push actively from the left toe switching the weight shift direction to a rotation to the right. so you do have both linear followed by rotational weight shift.

Jeff the steps each should land on the balls of the feet alone. No heels touching the ground except in the plant step after it has landed with the right toe inner (left) side.

Slow throws not enough elbow forward and the hips and the shoulders are still asleep. I'd concentrate on twisting the hips in the next session. Then the shoulders once you're able to engage the shoulders. At times your head gets stuck in place with the nose pointing upwards while the body runs forward away from the head. That influences aiming so neck posture upright is also something to work on.

The longest throw had better elbow lead and a hint of hip twist in the follow through so it was from momentum and not adding much but it is a start. Next earlier hip twist with way more force. Think of being scared shitless crossing over rails and hearing a train honk at you from 10'. The flinching turning toward the sound is as quick as pulling the hand away from fire. That kind of mental image needs to be the goal for the quickness initially. That kind of 100 % speed ain't controllable but first you need to find your maximum before you know what 80 % feels like.

 

[CaddyJeff]

I feel like I have a better grasp on what I am doing right/wrong. I think if I can work on some step timing, I still feel like I'm not "cocking" after my plant step lands, which I think will help with my weight shift and my pivot. My snap comes with much less effort and my consistency is much better. My goal really wasn't to break 400' or anything, I just wanted a better mental image of what I should be doing.

It will probably be a week or so before I have another video up. I need to get some practice in and see if I can make some bigger improvements before asking for more critique. Thanks again guys and I will have something up soon!

 

[CaddyJeff]

So it has been a long time since I have gotten a video up...My gf dropped my gopro in the ocean and my iphone isnt quite as convenient, but I did make a video today on my phone, but you cannot see my feet : /.

When I was making all those videos, my throw was changing constantly so it made playing on the course kind of difficult, so I took some time away from the field and just enjoyed disc golf. My throw has gotten better, but I still have a lot of the same things to work on. I am still having trouble from right pec on. Its like my upper body wants to continue forward with my arm and I bend at the waist towards my target instead of whipping my arm around my body. Anyways, I will try to get another video up on a concrete pad. Thanks in advance!


PS - I also threw a non run up at the end, I can throw standing still ~300 and my run up throw about 350' so I figure I have to be doing something wrong.

 

[sidewinder22]

Your balance and posture are off and your hips are out of control. Watch your hips in the follow through compared to any top thrower and you will see how far your hips move around. It will feel totally different and probably weird once you start moving in the right direction. Your arm swing is not all on plane either, which is probably a compensation for your hips.

Skip in to 2:30:

 

[JR]

The pause is lacking. Until you correct that and the hip posture it is good that you don't the head farther back and reach back farther. When you fix those issues that is the next thing which will push you up a distance plateau or two. During the x step tighten up the stomach and lower back muscles some increasing in stiffness every time you tilt at the hips until you don't. Then you know the minimum tightness level needed for consistency.

The biggest thing will probably be planting the final step 6-10" to the right where it is now. I'd try that first before adding muscle tension in the core.

 

[CaddyJeff]

The biggest thing will probably be planting the final step 6-10" to the right where it is now. I'd try that first before adding muscle tension in the core.

Do you mean to the right in the video(so a shorter step) or to my physical right?

 

[JR]

To your physical right but it is also a good idea to explore different stride lengths for different speeds. A way too short plant step for any given speed will lock up the femor to hip bone joint exceeding its movement range which stops the natural flow of the momentum you have created thus far. It jerks the upper body forward as the lower body retards quickly. And when the plant step is too far toward the left of the tee for optimal accuracy and consistency (which is every body part moves on the same plane as your intended hyzer angle is) for a flat throw there is a chance that the locked up hip joint also tilts the upper body to the right.

All of these possible issues would be helped a lot by just planting more toward the right side of the tee for a flat throw.

 

[CaddyJeff]

More of an update, i did a little better on core tightness, but my plant step placement and balance still leave a lot to be desired.

I can definitely feel the difference in the acceleration of the disc once it crosses my chest with the core tightness.

Tomorrow is plant step day.



Thanks again!

PS - Heel pivot at :55, am I on the right track there?

 

[sidewinder22]

You need to load on your rear leg differently and stop letting your rear heel touch the ground which will also change your balance.

 

[CaddyJeff]

You need to load on your rear leg differently and stop letting your rear heel touch the ground which will also change your balance.

k

 

[JR]

Your ball of the foot is usually on the ground. The 55 second throw is still borderline and because you plant the final step too far left for the easiest flat throw so it is no wonder that the sole to side of the shoe corner that you roll on is on the wrong side of the foot. You should land the plant step on the left side of the toe rolling to the heel on the left sole to side corner. A couple of inches more of ball of the foot height on land ground would help vs the visible separation of the grass tips to the ball of the foot there. Because the grass was fairly high you are probably well protected from injuries with that ball of the foot height in the throw that starts at 55 seconds.

Your hips stayed well aligned with added core tightness so you're right about the need to test different sideways placements of the plant step next to rectify the other half of leaning to the right.

At the speeds you were moving it is perfectly ok to leave the left leg on the ground and having the toe tip touch the ground is very Avery Jenkins. If you bent the knees 10-20 degrees more and pushed praying mantis fast with the left leg you could add more speed and have a good form. With more speed seabas is right in that the Feldy kick becomes easier to perform. Ideally knowing both ways can help you in different situations.

 

[CaddyJeff]

Thank you both for the quick replies!

 

[CaddyJeff]

I went to the field today, but most of the throws are basically the same. Changing my plant step positioning definitely helped with my balance, but I know my timing is still off. I did edit and upload 1 of my throws and I slowed it down. So I feel like my throw looks somewhat acceptable until ~ :10 when I shift my weight, from there I think it is just my body compensating for what my mind is trying to tell it to do. Am I not stopping my momentum enough with my right leg?. Should my knees be closer together?

Also, just a random question, where are you guys looking when you are throwing?



PS - Do you prefer an edited video with 1 throw or the 3 minutes of me throwing 15 or 20 discs?

 

[sidewinder22]

Your balance looks improved, although it can still improve more. Now you need to pivot/clear your hips back as your foot comes forward to plant and delay opening/throwing until you brace your front side. You don't really want to stop momentum, but redirect it by pivoting/clearing the front hip/shoulder which should help you bring the disc through closer to the body and get the elbow further forward. You are stopping/jamming your front hip and your momentum crashes into it. I'm looking at my disc until it rips and then my shoulder will bring my head up. I like that vid, although one full speed with one slow is better, and also adding a camera angle from behind helps show some other things.