Typically golf course bunkers (assuming they were built right) have proper drainage systems under the sand so removing the sand and keeping the drainage systems should have the same effect, assuming they were built properly.
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Ask John Houck about Course Design & Development
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Typically golf course bunkers (assuming they were built right) have proper drainage systems under the sand so removing the sand and keeping the drainage systems should have the same effect, assuming they were built properly.
... the drainage systems work because of the sand. it's a mixture of gravel under the sand and a pipe that drains it. if you take out the sand then you just have loose gravel there which will eventually be covered with dirt and grass which will clog up the pipes meaning no more drainage.
not to mention i'd rather be standing on sand than gravel playing disc golf.
Brad, thanks for this question. It looks like it raises a lot of important issues, including how to encourage smart play, obstacle width, positioning of obstacles close to a basket, luck, skill-appropriate challenge, and maybe even NAGS.
I think I understand what Steve was getting at; for the record, let me just say that, when I'm designing a hole, I'm not hoping to hear pros whine; I'm trying to get it to where pro players will say "Wow, great hole." And I'm also hoping everyone else will say the same thing. (Of course, some pros will whine no matter how good the hole is, and so will certain other people.) I just want to be clear that whining pros is not necessarily the measure of success in course design.
I'm not quite clear on how all the elements line up; in particular you say that the oak and the small tree are on opposite sides of the basket, and that if you're left you have the oak in your way, and if you're long you have the small tree in the way. So I'm having trouble figuring that out. Maybe you tell tell us where everything is when you're standing on the tee.
Also, I'm assuming that the two trees don't have any limbs lower than 8-10' -- is that right?
A few more questions:
So that sounds like you can be 3' to the right of the pin and have a tap in. Am I missing something?
Also, what exactly do you mean by "simple hyzer approach?" Maybe give it to us in statistical terms: if a pro is attempting the shot you think is the smart shot, how many times will he make it out of ten tries?
Please help me understand a little better how the green is laid out and how you think smart pros should go at it, and I'll see if I can help at all.
Thanks,
John
I think I understand what Steve was getting at; for the record, let me just say that, when I'm designing a hole, I'm not hoping to hear pros whine; I'm trying to get it to where pro players will say "Wow, great hole." And I'm also hoping everyone else will say the same thing. (Of course, some pros will whine no matter how good the hole is, and so will certain other people.) I just want to be clear that whining pros is not necessarily the measure of success in course design.
I'm not quite clear on how all the elements line up; in particular you say that the oak and the small tree are on opposite sides of the basket, and that if you're left you have the oak in your way, and if you're long you have the small tree in the way. So I'm having trouble figuring that out. Maybe you tell tell us where everything is when you're standing on the tee.
Also, I'm assuming that the two trees don't have any limbs lower than 8-10' -- is that right?
A few more questions:
So that sounds like you can be 3' to the right of the pin and have a tap in. Am I missing something?
Also, what exactly do you mean by "simple hyzer approach?" Maybe give it to us in statistical terms: if a pro is attempting the shot you think is the smart shot, how many times will he make it out of ten tries?
Please help me understand a little better how the green is laid out and how you think smart pros should go at it, and I'll see if I can help at all.
Thanks,
John
LetsPlayGolf
Par Member
No limbs immediately around the basket lower than 8'. If you go back and to the left, there are limbs from other trees about 6-8' high.
Three feet to the right, yes, an easy tap in.
I would think that if the pro was throwing from the ideal spot and aiming for the ideal spot, he should hit it 7 out of ten trys.
The tee shot needs to be a left-to-right shot. Fairway is not a dog-leg, but to have the angle for your approach you want to be far to the right. Anything to the left will easily add a stroke.
If you throw a perfect drive long and to the right - I believe the smart second shot is: right-to-left mid-range (for the skip not distance) Land about 150-160 feet and skip another 10-15 feet from right-to-left. Leaving anywhere from the 3' tap in to a 25' birdie look depending on where you hit.
Three feet to the right, yes, an easy tap in.
I would think that if the pro was throwing from the ideal spot and aiming for the ideal spot, he should hit it 7 out of ten trys.
The tee shot needs to be a left-to-right shot. Fairway is not a dog-leg, but to have the angle for your approach you want to be far to the right. Anything to the left will easily add a stroke.
If you throw a perfect drive long and to the right - I believe the smart second shot is: right-to-left mid-range (for the skip not distance) Land about 150-160 feet and skip another 10-15 feet from right-to-left. Leaving anywhere from the 3' tap in to a 25' birdie look depending on where you hit.
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Oops, did I say that out loud?
Key word there is "fun" - not the same as "successful" or "best". I believe it was in the context of recreational players enjoying the possibility of beating better players through random chance.
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Hi John, can you make it out to Cali next summer and play China Peak, Ross H, Leonard M, and Craig G's latest and in my opnion greatest design? Would love to hear your thoughts...
LetsPlayGolf
Par Member
Hey Steve-
No harm no foul... I was reading through the 'Design Harder Greens' thread and saw where you posted that and it (A) Fit this situation to a T and (B) Made me laugh out loud. Wasn't trying to imply anything at all.
Would be curious on your thoughts on the small tree as well.
Thanks guys.
Brad
No harm no foul... I was reading through the 'Design Harder Greens' thread and saw where you posted that and it (A) Fit this situation to a T and (B) Made me laugh out loud. Wasn't trying to imply anything at all.
Would be curious on your thoughts on the small tree as well.
Thanks guys.
Brad
As we've mentioned, raised baskets has been covered in many threads and we obviouisly have lots here in Charlotte. You like naturally raised baskets. My favorite use of artificially raised baskets is used to encourage agressive play...or for visual appeal.
For example:
Hole 18 at Eastway in Charlotte, the basket is raised so you see it through a "V" in a large tree.
There are a few holes where you are on a flat plateau and the green is at lower elevation but the slope starts at the back part of the fairway. A raised basket shows the thrower what he is throwing at and creates the appearence of the basket floating on the horizon. The basket is actually raised. An ace run on a hole like this almost never results in a birdie because the disc sails past. Smart play gets the deuce but almost never results in an ace.
As a course designer, I look for these 2 elements to raise a basket. I dont particularly, as a designer, like a raised basket in the middle of a field, just to create a harder putt. I'd prefer the raised basket add to aesthetics or course management from the tee.
What do feel about those 2 raised basket design styles.
Last edited:
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I'm hesitant to post on John's forum, but since you asked me...
You can't put the tree back. Leave it for a year. I'll bet it will become the favorite tree on the course, once people learn the "secret". If not, you can take it out later.
No limbs immediately around the basket lower than 8'. If you go back and to the left, there are limbs from other trees about 6-8' high.
Three feet to the right, yes, an easy tap in.
I would think that if the pro was throwing from the ideal spot and aiming for the ideal spot, he should hit it 7 out of ten trys.
The tee shot needs to be a left-to-right shot. Fairway is not a dog-leg, but to have the angle for your approach you want to be far to the right. Anything to the left will easily add a stroke.
If you throw a perfect drive long and to the right - I believe the smart second shot is: right-to-left mid-range (for the skip not distance) Land about 150-160 feet and skip another 10-15 feet from right-to-left. Leaving anywhere from the 3' tap in to a 25' birdie look depending on where you hit.
Brad,
Wow. Now that's what I call a clarification. That is beautiful. Tied up the next couple days; will write back soon. Thanks again.
MarcQueen
Newbie
garden bunkers, by queen
John,
Here's an idea that I would like to share and get some comments on. I picture this in an open area, of mowed grass, without any trees, slope, etc. The target is surrounded by six garden bunkers that would be labeled as line-of-play. For example, railroad ties buried at grade level would form the bunkers and the soil inside would be changed to allow flower or vegetable gardening, and maybe a couple of small fruit trees and a place to sit. The inner corcle, or putting green, measures 40-50 feet diameter. The bunkers are ten feet wide and varyong lengths. See attached drawing. May use this idea for the first hole. Not sure of distances, but likely 300 & 400ish. The project maps can be seen at facebook group called Hillsboro Ohio Disc Golf.
Thanks! --Marc
John,
Here's an idea that I would like to share and get some comments on. I picture this in an open area, of mowed grass, without any trees, slope, etc. The target is surrounded by six garden bunkers that would be labeled as line-of-play. For example, railroad ties buried at grade level would form the bunkers and the soil inside would be changed to allow flower or vegetable gardening, and maybe a couple of small fruit trees and a place to sit. The inner corcle, or putting green, measures 40-50 feet diameter. The bunkers are ten feet wide and varyong lengths. See attached drawing. May use this idea for the first hole. Not sure of distances, but likely 300 & 400ish. The project maps can be seen at facebook group called Hillsboro Ohio Disc Golf.
Thanks! --Marc
Attachments
grodney
* Ace Member *
Hey John -- Disc Golf drive at 0:54 in this Rockwall Economic Development video:
Ranger Rick
Par Member
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Rodney, that is outstanding. can't wait to hear your humble "Aw, shucks, I just came across it accidentally while surfing the web... after work, of course" explanation -- how the heck did you find that?
Marc, wow -- this is eerie. Your drawing is amazingly similar to one I showed a property owner recently, except that mine had a different configuration and was for a different part of the course. Very similar sizes and plantings, though. Spooky. Obviously great minds were on a similar wavelength.
So, if I understand right, someone who lands in one of these gardens could have to pull his lie back to about 60' from the basket? No stroke?
No limbs immediately around the basket lower than 8'. If you go back and to the left, there are limbs from other trees about 6-8' high.
Three feet to the right, yes, an easy tap in.
I would think that if the pro was throwing from the ideal spot and aiming for the ideal spot, he should hit it 7 out of ten trys.
The tee shot needs to be a left-to-right shot. Fairway is not a dog-leg, but to have the angle for your approach you want to be far to the right. Anything to the left will easily add a stroke.
If you throw a perfect drive long and to the right - I believe the smart second shot is: right-to-left mid-range (for the skip not distance) Land about 150-160 feet and skip another 10-15 feet from right-to-left. Leaving anywhere from the 3' tap in to a 25' birdie look depending on where you hit.
Brad, thanks again for the very detailed diagrams.
There are a lot of issues to look at here. Let's start with the easiest one.
The first thing I wonder is about the distances. A 300' drive that's 25' uphill seems reasonable. A 160' approach that's 10' uphill is a bit short, but the fact that it's a small green probably makes it OK. If someone throws a shorter drive and has a longer approach, I don't see a problem. The only problem would be for someone who can throw a bigger drive (and I don't see anything that would limit that) -- their approach is probably too easy. But that wasn't really your question.
Is it OK to make players shoot for just part of the green? Absolutely. As I've said recently, I'm doing it using bunkers on the new course in Monroe, Washington, which used to be a ball golf course. Your green basically has the same concept with your 10' dropoff. That seems just fine.
What's different is the trees. What I like about the little tree is that some players who wind up "north" of the basket will have to curve their putt to get around it. It works for that purpose because it's skinny and close to the basket. Of course, being "north" is already tricky because of the dropoff behind the basket.
What I don't like about it is that skinny obstacles create situations that I would consider random or lucky. For example, two players throw almost identical approaches, and one will have to putt around that tree while the other, a foot away, will have a straight look. And worse, the guy who missed farther "west" will also have an open look he probably doesn't deserve.
Even more troubling, two almost identical approaches come in too hot. One goes 30' into the trees on the left; the other hits the skinny tree and drops 2' from the basket.
And some other bad shots will hit the oak and drop 4' from the basket. That oak isn't skinny, but it's going to help a lot of shots that don't deserve help. And some of those other trees will, too. That would probably be my biggest concern with the hole.
All in all, I'd say your concept was good. Maybe there could have been a more elegant way to execute that concept, but it looks like a mostly fun, fair, and challenging hole. So my bottom line is that I'm not going to recommend that you take out the little tree.
The last thing I'd say is that, as a pay-to-play venue, your obligation is to your customer, not to the parks department. So if keeping your customers happy becomes an issue, maybe that tree is worth sacrificing.
Thanks again for the question. Hope that helped a little.
grodney
* Ace Member *
Aw shucks, I just wrote a quick little Disc Golf Video Recognition Algorithm and strapped it to (what most would call) a bot that continually monitors youtube videos and pipes any candidate signatures into a 360-degree virtual space parser to make the final determination.
After work, of course.
MarcQueen
Newbie
Yep, that about sums me up.
That's what I was thinking. After an approach were to land so un-precisely as to be rewarded with an extra 20, 30 or 40 feet on the putt, I just couldn't bear to add a penalty stroke. Also, if it were labeled OB, then we'd have to wonder where the disc last crossed that plane. I guess I'm just a big fan of the casual relief, line-of-play bunker philosophy.
In my drawing, the primary skill is to be able to land within a 40-50 foot circle, without any skip or target-bump out to the bunker; not to mention a straight line to the target is bunker free. The distance from tees depends a little on my target audiences. I think the two largest gardens in front frame the hole nicely, and also add more risk to coming up short and off center. Ironically, the more aggressive the run, the greater the chance of landing in a shorter bunker (i.e. come up short = longest bunker, hyzer at the chains = medium bunker, ace run off to the side = shortest bunker).
What variations have you thought of for this? Do you think it blends some key elements like fairness and challenge? How would you label it on the tee sign?
Royal Hill
Eagle Member
Let alone how you would have to label it on the course. Hopefully those gardens don't attract people to sit amongst them, garden in them, or draw people in - depending on the local foot traffic. It could look like a formal garden...
...and unintentionally create a target rich environment!
good concept, but be careful with the execution and unintended usage.
hmm.. Maybe if they are bland, scraggly and unattractive. But that ruins the cool part doesn't it!
I do like this better than a segmented or broken fence circle (stonehenge style) due to the set back aspect.
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Hey John,
Will that course in Monroe, WA that you were working on be a pay to play course? It was referred to at some point as private and so I wasnt sure if that meant only available to those who live there or just that you must play to get in. Thanks in advance.
jr stengele
Will that course in Monroe, WA that you were working on be a pay to play course? It was referred to at some point as private and so I wasnt sure if that meant only available to those who live there or just that you must play to get in. Thanks in advance.
jr stengele
