Ask John Houck about Course Design & Development

[Cgkdisc]

I would say the open hole is less desirable because proper length may be the only tool available in the short term to produce scoring spread for a skill level. At least the guarded pin likely provides more spread albeit overly favoring power to get it.

 

[sidewinder22]

Question about NAGS. What is less desirable?

1) 50-80ft NAGS zone that has a basket closely guarded and overly guarded by trees that basically eliminates a chance of hitting chains?
2) 80-120ft NAGS zone with a basket that is wide open?

I read through the old NAGS thread and didn't really find an concensus.

IMO option 2 is less desirable unless there's good elevation. Option 1 sounds like half the holes at the Blockhouse.

 

[jrawk]

No particular course in mind. I got sidetracked researching PITTSBOROs and read through the NAGS thread. Maybe should have posted this question there.

Anyway.. wouldn't option 1 punish a good drive no matter the distance? i guess my question is really if a basket heavily guarded inside the circle with a fairly wide open fairway between it and the teepad would play similar if there was nothing guarding the basket. I'd expect most players to lay up at the base of the trees and putt for a fairly routine 3.

I suppose somebody could take a gamble at the basket, get a bad kick off a tree and deflect outward, but quite frankly that can happen off the top of the basket in a wide open field as well.

 

[sidewinder22]

I think part of what you are asking is dependent on skill level and how heavily guarded you are talking.

I generally prefer some randomness over zero. If you are talking about a pretty open fairway to a somewhat guarded basket inside the circle, then it would be similar to hole 5 at Rockburn, which is often one of the favorites. I always aim for the basket from the tee and occasionally get kicked. Hole 6 at Rockburn is one of my least favorites, it's wide open 2/3 the fairway and then it's just plinko about 50% of the time the last 100-200' depending on the position. I still aim for the basket and hope, or plan on making a recovery shot which is still often possible.

If you are talking about a heavily wooded fairway to a very protected basket like a few holes at the Blockhouse then it becomes frustrating to clear the fairway and still have no option.

 

[Peter 127]

John or Chuck: Did either of you have a hand in design at Borderland State Park in MA (on the outskirts of Boston)?

Chuck: I hope you hear me thank you every time I play the Valley! I love that course.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Pretty sure Borderland was done locally. I haven't even played in New England east of NY in my DG career. The Valley is still one of my favorites, too, even with all of the changes we've been forced to do over the years.

 

[Peter 127]

Borderland is a good use of space for a multi-use facility. The alternate pad and pin positions really create multiple unique courses. There was clear thoughtful use of elevation and trees, versus pin and pad positions. Many holes have all of the above in a boulder field. It would be great to play position on a number of holes, however the boulders make that a real challenge.

As for Valley... sincerely Thank you!

 

[johnrhouck]

Question about NAGS. What is less desirable?

1) 50-80ft NAGS zone that has a basket closely guarded and overly guarded by trees that basically eliminates a chance of hitting chains?
2) 80-120ft NAGS zone with a basket that is wide open?

I read through the old NAGS thread and didn't really find an concensus.

Jerry, for an experienced player, an 80-120' flat open shot is pretty much Not A Golf Shot. It's too short to be a challenge, and too long to hope to hit it (80' is maybe kind of borderline -- fun to run at, but no one's going to be hitting it very often).

50-80' that's closely guarded might take some skill to get close, but I have a hard time calling anything that short a real golf shot.

That said, it sounds like your question is more about hole design, not just what makes a NAGS.

i guess my question is really if a basket heavily guarded inside the circle with a fairly wide open fairway between it and the teepad would play similar if there was nothing guarding the basket. I'd expect most players to lay up at the base of the trees and putt for a fairly routine 3.

I suppose somebody could take a gamble at the basket, get a bad kick off a tree and deflect outward, but quite frankly that can happen off the top of the basket in a wide open field as well.

I think I'm missing something. If you're saying there would be trees inside the circle and pretty much nowhere else, I'm thinking you'd want to lay up and put for a two, not a three. It would make more sense to me to put the obstacles 30'-50' from the pin, so that someone hitting them would have a tricky but makeable putt. But maybe I'm not quite understanding the hole you're envisioning. If so, let me know, and I'll try again. Thanks.

 

[johnrhouck]

John or Chuck: Did either of you have a hand in design at Borderland State Park in MA (on the outskirts of Boston)?

Chuck: I hope you hear me thank you every time I play the Valley! I love that course.

Peter, I was not involved in Borderland. And the frustrating thing is that, on all my trips to Nantucket (I did design the course there), I've never had time to check out Borderland (or Maple Hill or Pyramids or anything else). Maybe some day...

 

[Peter 127]

Thank you for responding John. I hope you get to visit the ones on your list at some point.

 

[johnrhouck]

Thanks, Peter. The list keeps getting longer and longer, but I stay hopeful.

 

[geoloseth]

When will the Trey Texas courses be unlocked for reviews? It's been 6 months since the first tournament was run out there.

 

[johnrhouck]

When will the Trey Texas courses be unlocked for reviews? It's been 6 months since the first tournament was run out there.

That's a good question, Seth. I talked to the owners about it recently, and they felt that the course still wasn't finished, but they're close. They just bought a stump grinder. As you know, there are still plenty of stumps to come out. I should be talking to them again soon, and hope to report that the "official" opening will be soon.

 

[davetherocketguy]

John...I'm curious as to what your take might be on this particular issue might be:

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=105718

Have you had any issues with this? What are your thoughts?

Pretty obvious how I feel about onerous government regulations...

-Dave

 

[chopz33]

Andrew brown, coppell Texas?

 

[OlyWA Kenobi]

Hey, John.

I searched around, and the best answer I've gotten is "Spring 2014" for the opening of Tall Firs in Monroe, WA. That's soon, huh?

Any update? Please and thank you!

 

[Magicweed]

John,

I just became a PDGA member this season so now that I get DiscGolfer I really enjoy reading your articles in "The Hole Truth". In the spring issue you discussed how you feel the philosophy regarding course design should evolve. The primary emphasis would be on creating holes that require even the highest level of player to weigh the risks and rewards of each shot. This would also include creating more "legitimate" par 4 and par 5 holes where length is not the main determining factor of par. I've played ball golf ever since I was a kid, so having this kind of configuration would be very familiar and welcome in my eyes. You mentioned in the most recent issue that public and private course owners are becoming much more open to planting trees and moving earth to create the kind of next level experience you were talking about.

What kind of developments and trends are you seeing in your current and future projects? How long do you think it will take until we see an 18 hole course capable of a gold level par in the high 60s or even 70?

I may be new to the sport, but I feel like one or two dozen of these courses near major disc areas would add substantially to the sport, especially if there is consideration given to how a gallery would watch a round. Is there anything currently in the works, or on the horizon, that could take the game to that level?

 

[tampora]

I just read "Dreaming IN COLOR, The hole truth" by John Houck in the Spring 2014 issue of Discgolfer. In it, he listed his 5 principles of state-of-the-art course design. Unfortunately, my pinnacle issue is not among those listed.

I would implore you to place the utmost priority on designing holes with both lefties and righties in mind, EVERY SINGLE TIME, specifically off of the teepad and with regards to basket placement. On NO hole should one particular handedness become a severe handicap.

You can attempt to play the game of giving each type of player a few holes and letting the others "deal with it" until it's their turn, but I find this never achieves a fair balance.

Just once for a change, I'd like to see a tight, long dogleg right under a short, dense canopy where righty-anhyzers are impossible.

 

[tampora]

For example: consider the short and crazy 90-degree dogleg right hole at Blue Ribbon Pines. If that hole had a 10-foot high ceiling, no righty would ever land in the circle. But, since it has a huge ceiling, anhyzers are possible. Thus, the hole works somewhat for both Lefty and Righty.

 

[goosefraba1]

John, on our local course that we have been building at Jacobson Park in Lexington, we have a hole (#7) that plays through an open first 75 feet, then through a 15ft wide gap with a mando on the left. The fairway then becomes more wooded for the next 75 feet. There is then a hard dogleg left with the basket another 150 feet away. The way that it plays on a blue course, I would call it a par 3.5. A tweener. With the mando in play (protects the caretaker's property), it is impossible to make it any closer than 80 feet from the basket because of the extreme dog leg. There are some smaller trees that protect the basket. So, even a fairway ace is not likely. I feel that the hole could be better if the teepad (rubber at this time) were moved to the right 15-20 feet to help accomodate the extreme dogleg.... and allowing for tee shots to get closer to the basket. Otherwise, I would consider trimming the trees protecting the basket. This would make the hole a 3 either way. Or... the next alternate basket could be moved to a longer position to make a true 4. What is your take on this?

I think that the best option would be to move the pad because that would be easy. I will try to get pics later if possible today.