Ask John Houck about Course Design & Development

[johnrhouck]

I'm curious what people make of this. I was looking at USDGC scores and noticed the huge difference between high and low round scores for individual players.

Someone has already noted that weather was a factor in final round, but that only applies to about 1/2 of the players I looked at, and there are always other factors in the final round, including being aggressive to move up.

I posted my spreadsheet at:

https://twitter.com/HouckDesign/status/1316349379029209088

Thoughts?

 

[Cgkdisc]

I'm curious what people make of this. I was looking at USDGC scores and noticed the huge difference between high and low round scores for individual players.

Someone has already noted that weather was a factor in final round, but that only applies to about 1/2 of the players I looked at, and there are always other factors in the final round, including being aggressive to move up.

I posted my spreadsheet at:

https://twitter.com/HouckDesign/status/1316349379029209088

Thoughts?

I observed the same thing (again and again and...) and commented to Steve West yesterday. When you have several throw and distance penalty elements in hole designs with minimal or no immediate forward movement to a drop zone, you are more likely to see this scoring swing occur, even when the weather conditions are similar from round to round.

 

[Steve West]

Here are the differences between high and low scores of each player (spread) by hole.

 

[curmudgeonDwindle]

Ideas belong to no one. I doubt anyone here sincerely believes the folks at Innova were the first or only to imagine a triangular rim disc - so what is it that makes them noteworthy? Perseverance? Belief? Faith?

Interesting how with human beings, investment leads to conservatism, and frankly, I'm a bit surprised that so many on this thread implicitly discourage other's experiments including the cheerleading of same, as seems like not too long ago the triangular rim disc was 'wildly chaotic and innovative' - this will revolutionize the game! What's that company's name again?

Fair enough. Maybe we're not so different after all - all the same guy in another suit, playing hide and seek with each other...we all play our roles.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Ideas belong to no one. I doubt anyone here sincerely believes the folks at Innova were the first or only to imagine a triangular rim disc - so what is it that makes them noteworthy? Perseverance? Belief? Faith?

Followthrough

 

[curmudgeonDwindle]

The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum—even encourage the more critical and dissident views. That gives people the sense that there's free thinking going on, while all the time the presuppositions of the system are being reinforced by the limits put on the range of the debate - Noam Chomsky 1998

google: overton window

encouragement may the limit of some people's desired involvement - either way, it's never enough...

 

[curmudgeonDwindle]

Followthrough

rhetorical questions need not be answered, my friend...

 

[Cgkdisc]

rhetorical questions need not be answered, my friend...

But some have good answers worth repeating...

 

[Shallows]

Agape Farm course in Shirleysburg PA is finally ready to open:
https://www.discgolfscene.com/tournament/AGAPE_Soft_Opening_Disc_Golf_Event_2023

 

[johnrhouck]

Agape Farm course in Shirleysburg PA is finally ready to open:

Yes, it is. Finally. It's a happy day. Hope to see some of you there.

 

[biscoe]

Yes, it is. Finally. It's a happy day. Hope to see some of you there.

Do they know when it will be open on a regular basis outside the event?

 

[johnrhouck]

Hey, John. I recently got his from the powers that be:

The course will be open starting May 14th (soft opening tournament is 5/13)
Show up 10 am thru 6 pm ....
Rate will be $12 for Championship course to start. $5 for the micro course.
If they want to lodge at the farm they will need to make reservations ... for the course no reservation Mon-Thurs... On weekends a "Tee time" will be recommended.
Please call Bruce to make lodging reservations 267-716-7504 and to make payments ... or call Bruce if there is no one in the pro shop (weekdays).

Not 100% sure if I'll be able to make it on the 13th, but I encourage everyone to go check out this course. Amazing property with some of my favorite holes.

https://agapefarm.com/
https://www.facebook.com/AgapeFarmRetreatCenter/

 

[biscoe]

Hey, John. I recently got his from the powers that be:

The course will be open starting May 14th (soft opening tournament is 5/13)
Show up 10 am thru 6 pm ....
Rate will be $12 for Championship course to start. $5 for the micro course.
If they want to lodge at the farm they will need to make reservations ... for the course no reservation Mon-Thurs... On weekends a "Tee time" will be recommended.
Please call Bruce to make lodging reservations 267-716-7504 and to make payments ... or call Bruce if there is no one in the pro shop (weekdays).

Not 100% sure if I'll be able to make it on the 13th, but I encourage everyone to go check out this course. Amazing property with some of my favorite holes.

https://agapefarm.com/
https://www.facebook.com/AgapeFarmRetreatCenter/

Thanks. I am going to take a field trip or two this year to check out your work firsthand there and probably Rock Ridge. I was debating the 13th but I am running a big event the following week so might not be able to swing that one. (I hear you might have one coming in MD as well.)

 

[Monocacy]

... for the course no reservation Mon-Thurs... On weekends a "Tee time" will be recommended.

Very helpful, thank you! :thmbup:

. . . (I hear you might have one coming in MD as well.)

I would love to hear about a possible Maryland course!

 

[johnrhouck]

Thanks. I am going to take a field trip or two this year to check out your work firsthand there and probably Rock Ridge. I was debating the 13th but I am running a big event the following week so might not be able to swing that one. (I hear you might have one coming in MD as well.)

That's great, John. Hope you enjoy them both, and please let me know what you think. Constructive feedback is a great way to learn.

 

[johnrhouck]

Very helpful, thank you! :thmbup:

I would love to hear about a possible Maryland course!

That Maryland rumor is pretty interesting. We'll let you know if we have any news. No news at this point. Definitely have other news -- about other places -- coming soon.

 

[sidewinder22]

Hey, John. I recently got his from the powers that be:

The course will be open starting May 14th (soft opening tournament is 5/13)
Show up 10 am thru 6 pm ....
Rate will be $12 for Championship course to start. $5 for the micro course.
If they want to lodge at the farm they will need to make reservations ... for the course no reservation Mon-Thurs... On weekends a "Tee time" will be recommended.
Please call Bruce to make lodging reservations 267-716-7504 and to make payments ... or call Bruce if there is no one in the pro shop (weekdays).

Not 100% sure if I'll be able to make it on the 13th, but I encourage everyone to go check out this course. Amazing property with some of my favorite holes.

https://agapefarm.com/
https://www.facebook.com/AgapeFarmRetreatCenter/

^ FYI I would call ahead, I don't think they are quite ready for people to just show up unannounced as there is no payment box yet. I was also told that Sundays the course will be closed in the morning for worship services(until 12pm), but anyone is welcome to attend the service.


I played two rounds of the longs on Sat in the rain and won the 40+ division by default.

1st round was a fivesome, we took nearly 5hrs with everyone playing the course blind and we were the only group playing longs and finished way later than the others. Had a couple close calls, but zero lost discs.

2nd round we split the fivesome into a 2some and 3some, I was in the 3some and I think it still took about 4hrs. We also played the course out of order going to hole 10 instead of 1 after 18. So we ended up playing 17, 18, 10, 9 and then 1-8, then 11-16.

I played a practice round on Sun in much better weather, although still physically beatdown from Sat (and Friday played the Seven Points Ravine 18 which is more extreme mountain terrain). Agape got better the more I played it, figuring out the lines and landing zones. Really love this beautiful beast of a course!

 

[Shallows]

^ FYI I would call ahead, I don't think they are quite ready for people to just show up unannounced as there is no payment box yet. I was also told that Sundays the course will be closed in the morning for worship services(until 12pm), but anyone is welcome to attend the service.


I played two rounds of the longs on Sat in the rain and won the 40+ division by default.

1st round was a fivesome, we took nearly 5hrs with everyone playing the course blind and we were the only group playing longs and finished way later than the others. Had a couple close calls, but zero lost discs.

2nd round we split the fivesome into a 2some and 3some, I was in the 3some and I think it still took about 4hrs. We also played the course out of order going to hole 10 instead of 1 after 18. So we ended up playing 17, 18, 10, 9 and then 1-8, then 11-16.

I played a practice round on Sun in much better weather, although still physically beatdown from Sat (and Friday played the Seven Points Ravine 18 which is more extreme mountain terrain). Agape got better the more I played it, figuring out the lines and landing zones. Really love this beautiful beast of a course!

Whoa this video looks amazing, some of those par 5s are impressive! Throwing some nice shots.

 

[Countchunkula]

^^What Shallows said. I'd be playing at least one of those par 5s hoping for single digits.

Thanks for filming so we can all check out the course. Looks like a hike and a half even if you're not adding extra distance to setup and retrieve the camera.