Assigning pars to a course without them

[Nemmers]

I'm starting a league here in Des Moines and the second round will be played on a course that has no pars assigned to any holes. Now, during the tournaments such as the Des Moines Challenge they've gone with the default of every hole being a par three. Seems to be the consensus among most players here in the Iowa capitol to play it that way, too.

However, with no pars assigned either by the course tee signs, by the city that installed it or (so far as I can tell) the PDGA, I'm wondering how "official" playing every hole as a par 3 is. Not only that, but if you look at past results, few below the pro level even scored under par at this course. Even some of the pros shot over par, so I have to wonder how reasonable and legitimate the normally-played pars are in the first place.

That said, I'm wondering if, during my PDGA-sanctioned league, I'm allowed to assign what I believe to be more realistic pars to a few of the longer holes? Is there a rule I'm unaware of that disallows this, even though no pars have been assigned except on DGCR and what's "normally" played by locals?

And on a more personal level, if someone were to change the pars on one of your courses would you feel as if they were out of line? Would I be making an ethical faux pas by going against what is normally played by the people who's interest I'm trying to draw to my league by adding a couple strokes on holes I feel reasonably warrant them? In short: Even if I can legally change the pars, should I?

The intent is NOT to make the course easier...just more reasonable.

Really curious about this one...

 

[DavidSauls]

I'm in the "par doesn't matter" camp---especially on these issues.

The PDGA won't care what pars are assigned. You could call everything par-2 or par-6, it would hardly matter. There is no rule I can think of that would apply.

(The caveat is that par matters on people missing holes, but that would only affect the ratings in a miniscule way).

 

[DavidSauls]

....that said, if you can get involved with setting appropriate pars where there are none, and getting signs put up, and I'd think some people would appreciate it.

 

[BENFTS]

I'm starting a league here in Des Moines and the second round will be played on a course that has no pars assigned to any holes. Now, during the tournaments such as the Des Moines Challenge they've gone with the default of every hole being a par three. Seems to be the consensus among most players here in the Iowa capitol to play it that way, too.

However, with no pars assigned either by the course tee signs, by the city that installed it or (so far as I can tell) the PDGA, I'm wondering how "official" playing every hole as a par 3 is. Not only that, but if you look at past results, few below the pro level even scored under par at this course. Even some of the pros shot over par, so I have to wonder how reasonable and legitimate the normally-played pars are in the first place.

That said, I'm wondering if, during my PDGA-sanctioned league, I'm allowed to assign what I believe to be more realistic pars to a few of the longer holes? Is there a rule I'm unaware of that disallows this, even though no pars have been assigned except on DGCR and what's "normally" played by locals?

And on a more personal level, if someone were to change the pars on one of your courses would you feel as if they were out of line? Would I be making an ethical faux pas by going against what is normally played by the people who's interest I'm trying to draw to my league by adding a couple strokes on holes I feel reasonably warrant them? In short: Even if I can legally change the pars, should I?

The intent is NOT to make the course easier...just more reasonable.

Really curious about this one...

No

You changing the par will in no way change how many strokes someone will shoot on the course. All you're really doing is changing the number under par you put on the score card at then end of the round.

Example: Lets say the par is 54 and you shoot a 54 you're even par. Lets say you shoot that same 54 but now you've adjusted the par and it's now a -4 round. Either way you still shot a 54.

 

[DavidSauls]

And on a more personal level, if someone were to change the pars on one of your courses would you feel as if they were out of line? Would I be making an ethical faux pas by going against what is normally played by the people who's interest I'm trying to draw to my league by adding a couple strokes on holes I feel reasonably warrant them? In short: Even if I can legally change the pars, should I?

If you're talking about scorecards and scoring for your event---no, I wouldn't care in the slightest.

If you're talking about getting permanent signs made.....tread very lightly.

 

[frasnow]

Why not use the PDGA guidelines?
http://www.pdga.com/files/ParGuidelines_1.pdf

 

[reposado]

No

You changing the par will in no way change how many strokes someone will shoot on the course. All you're really doing is changing the number under par you put on the score card at then end of the round.

Example: Lets say the par is 54 and you shoot a 54 you're even par. Lets say you shoot that same 54 but now you've adjusted the par and it's now a -4 round. Either way you still shot a 54.

I'm assuming since he said it was part of a league that it matters because of handicaps.

if the league plays some rounds on one course and some on another, you would want the handicaps to be equivalent

 

[ToddL]

Well, it's certainly not a par 54 course. The Long-Blue layout has 6 holes over 600 feet. Does it really, really, really matter? I guess not, but that's not really the point.

Is there not a formal club that runs more events at the course? Holding a tournament with 190 players and an $11,000 pro purse implies that there's some pretty good organization going on in Des Moines. Have they had these discussions before?

For your league, I'd recommend changing the par.
But like David Sauls said, tread lightly if you want to make tee signs. People get worked up about these things and you definitely need to work within the existing power structure to do these things.

 

[ronnie]

I play to par holes. When a 400+ foot hole in tight woods is a par 3, that changes the dynamic of how I would throw versus it being a par 4.

I know I'm in the minority on this, but it probably comes from my many years of ball golf. How silly would it be to call every hole on a ball golf course a par 3? You lose the dynamic of players going for greens on longer holes versus laying up and taking par. Just my two cents.

 

[@iDiscGolf]

Lowest score matters. Period

Also I doubt people would be mad if you changed any pars, assuming they are all par 3s now, your only going to be giving them strokes by handing out 4s or 5s

 

[m_Krakov]

I play to par holes. When a 400+ foot hole in tight woods is a par 3, that changes the dynamic of how I would throw versus it being a par 4.

I know I'm in the minority on this, but it probably comes from my many years of ball golf. How silly would it be to call every hole on a ball golf course a par 3? You lose the dynamic of players going for greens on longer holes versus laying up and taking par. Just my two cents.

How, and most importantly....why??? Isn't the goal to get the lowest score, not to save face by getting a "par"?

 

[ronnie]

How, and most importantly....why??? Isn't the goal to get the lowest score, not to save face by getting a "par"?

Watch ball golf. That'll explain the how and why. It's gimmicky to have all par 3's IMO.

Par is defined as: the number of strokes a first-class player should normally require for a particular hole or course.

Match the score to a number that is reasonable for first class players. Another train of thought is "if you can't ace it, it should probably be a par 4+".

If numbers don't matter to you, do you not get excited when you ace a hole? It's just a number after all. Or do you care when you go on a streak and get a bunch of birdie 2's? What happens when you have the mentality that you want to birdie every hole (high level competitors have this mindset, right?) and they step up to a par 3 700' hole?

 

[Nemmers]

Why not use the PDGA guidelines?
http://www.pdga.com/files/ParGuidelines_1.pdf

Thanks, bro! Somehow I missed this....gonna keep it handy.

 

[The Birdie Beast]

What course is it?

 

[JC17393]

The only reason, and I mean the ONLY reason, that a reasonable par matters in disc golf is in the application of Competition Manual rule 1.5 B (1). That rule states that a player who is late arriving at the start of a round receives par plus 4 for each hole they fail to play. The idea is that the rule can be applied more fairly, particularly for a shotgun start, if par is reasonably set for each hole. If a player is late to start on a short hole (say 200 feet) and another is late to start on a longer hole (say 700 feet), having both holes called a par 3 might be overly punishing the first player. Taking a seven on a hole where a three is the likely score is more punitive than being given a seven on a hole where a four or five might be more likely. If the longer, harder hole rightfully has a higher par, then the penalties are more equivalent.

Beyond that, par in our game is 100% meaningless. The ultimate goal is to have the lowest score, whether you call it -2 or +7, a 61 is a 61 is a 61.

 

[ToddL]

How, and most importantly....why??? Isn't the goal to get the lowest score, not to save face by getting a "par"?

Does par matter to determine the winner? No, of course not. But there are other places where having a reasonable par makes your day just a little bit better.

"Yo, my round went fine. I ripped off three birdie 2s in a row, but then I got a bogey 4 on that thousand footer, then three more birdie 2s."
vs
"Yo, my round went fine. I had a streak of seven birdies in a row, including a birdie on that monster par 5."


"500 foot dogleg par 3? Are they really expecting me to be able to get in putting range on my drive?"
"500 foot dogleg par 4? I guess most people lay up at the corner to get their birdie."

They're not a big deal at all, but it's keep your mind focused in the right place. Par gives you an indication of what a good player is expected to do and a goal to aim for. If you guys are so hellbent on keeping everything a par 3, you should instead by fighting to remove the term altogether. Hole number and distance, that's all you really need. Nevermind telling anyone you got a birdie or an eagle. Nevermind your newbie girlfriend getting excited the first time she scores par on a hole, then birdies a hole, then scores par on the course. "Just mark it a 3, dear. Keep your voice down, other people are putting."

 

[Improbably]

If you guys are so hellbent on keeping everything a par 3, you should instead by fighting to remove the term altogether. Hole number and distance, that's all you really need. Nevermind telling anyone you got a birdie or an eagle.

That sounds like a dream come true.

Although I would not be opposed to standardizing to Gold pars, setting everything less than about 240 to a par 2, AND adding a disclaimer saying this hole is design-flaw easy!

 

[Stardoggy]

Par. Pffft. Most useless term in disc golf.

 

[Steve West]

...Not only that, but if you look at past results, few below the pro level even scored under par at this course. Even some of the pros shot over par, so I have to wonder how reasonable and legitimate the normally-played pars are in the first place.

Leaving them at all par 3 is better than making some of them higher par. Some of the pros should score over par, if it's a good par. For the event you linked, whatever courses the last three rounds were played, the ideal par is 54. For the first round it is 48.

So, unless you want to assign some par 2s (to offset any 4s you create, and get the first course down to par 48) leave them all par 3.

As others have said, you can set whatever par you want. Since 54 is about the right total par, why bother rocking the boat?

 

[ronnie]

Why is 54 "about the right total par"?

Legit question. Is it right because 18x3=54? What if every hole was par 4? Or par 2?

What type of signal are we sending new players by not telling them what people that play the game well should score? Isn't that the goal to improve? Par sets the standard, and gives us something to play towards to improve our game.