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I think the video issues are when I use this Coach's Eye app on my phone to trim videos down. It trims the video but not the audio evidently! Good to know that
Totally agree on the floppy noodle arm. I wasn't really trying to throw, was really just trying to change how my shoulder was jacking up.
Next time I'll be trying to keep dinglin' AND have a defined hit point
You're a little sawed off/jerky in the shoulder motion, been there.
When you watch SW22 in his vid starting ~here, watch how smoothly and rhythmically his shoulder is moving.
The weight of the hand/arm/disc is pulling the shoulder into the backswing, and the shoulder is leading the hand/arm/disc into the swing.
He's allowing his leading/throwing shoulder to tilt more toward the ground so that the throwing arm can lead the shoulder toward and behind the rear hip in the backswing, and then swing naturally forward from there with the swing. You're not quite letting your shoulder swing freely back and forth. The weighted object should help - try to remove all extraneous motion other than swinging the weight nice and easy w/ a focus on the shoulder.
Getting the disc to that right pec (in my case left) makes such a big difference. It really feels like the basic building block of a good throw. So my mantra is now:
door frame - getting in an athletic position with my body and arm braced against the imaginary door frame
armpit - get the disc into my armpit (doesn't actually get there, but this cue helps me get it close to the throwing pec consistently)
high five - finish with the hand high. This one is the hardest to consistently make happen without borking the throw still.
Focusing on slowing down and staying smooth is sooo important. Exactly as Brychanus mentioned about being smooth rather than jerky. I was focusing so much on generating a big weight shift and throwing my body around I was missing out on all the easy leverage from proper upper body timing.
My distance hasn't increased but I'm hitting my lines with so much less effort and I can really feel the disc accelerating and zipping out. Going to be focusing on increasing consistency and slowly work more of a weight shift back in.
Door Frame.
Armpit.
High Five.
No video to post but wanted to drop this here for myself and to show all the great advice I've gotten has been going to good use still!
I regressed then progressed. I think with a huge revelation on 'snap' and leveraging the disc.
Tried to get back the good feeling and throws from my right-pec session and couldn't do so. However I had been revisiting the 'closed shoulder snap drill' and More Snap video plus the old hammer drills thread so I decided to give that a try.
I finally "got" the closed shoulder snap drill and the idea of throwing around the nose of the disc (I think). I was throwing into a fence 20 feet away and really zinging them but more importantly I had a new feeling in my forearm/wrist. I could feel the weight and resistance of the disc as I tried to sling the back end around.
A couple putter throws into the field had me getting to 150-175 line drives 5 feet of the ground with almost zero body use. So then I tried to add more of the full throw in and I could start to feel what made the nebulous "feeling" stronger and what made it weaker. It actually was pretty difficult to incorporate much reachback without making the feeling weaker so I went really slow. LostDoughnut's video of the '2 speeds' came to mind so I came rreeaaal slow into my chest and then accelerated outwards. Worked well!
A few questions on this: when I was getting 'snap' and feeling the weight of the disc I felt the muscles on the topside of my forearm being used, is that expected and a sign I'm doing something right (or at least not wrong!). I normally don't feel that.
Is it REALLY easy to lose the grip of the disc when incorporating more of the full throw? I found that when I used more reachback and the feeling got weaker it felt like the disc was slipping out early and I wasn't getting to the 'heavy disc' point. The 2 speed approach helped but it was tough!
*edit*: I was using power grip, next time I'll try different grips to see if it changes things
As a bonus the More Snap concepts of throwing around the nose unlocked my forehand! I always had a 50% chance of the disc just slipping out and flopping off to the side but this concept really seems to solve that for me.
A few questions on this: when I was getting 'snap' and feeling the weight of the disc I felt the muscles on the topside of my forearm being used, is that expected and a sign I'm doing something right (or at least not wrong!). I normally don't feel that.
Is it REALLY easy to lose the grip of the disc when incorporating more of the full throw? I found that when I used more reachback and the feeling got weaker it felt like the disc was slipping out early and I wasn't getting to the 'heavy disc' point. The 2 speed approach helped but it was tough!
*edit*: I was using power grip, next time I'll try different grips to see if it changes things
As a bonus the More Snap concepts of throwing around the nose unlocked my forehand! I always had a 50% chance of the disc just slipping out and flopping off to the side but this concept really seems to solve that for me.
1. Yes.
2. Probably has more to due with swing path or concept.
We actually throw/swing the nose around the hand just like a hammer.
It's not "throwing or working around the nose in straight line."
1. Yes.
2. Probably has more to due with swing path or concept.
We actually throw/swing the nose around the hand just like a hammer.
It's not "throwing or working around the nose in straight line."
Speaking of hammers...got some more video which gave some obvious insights.
Hammer Tossing:
Disc Throws
Most useful thing I see is from the hammer toss. I'm WAY over my front leg and not really bracing well at all.
In the follow through my rear arm flies up to keep from falling on my face and I wind up way out to the side. I see the same issue in the disc throws although not as dramatic. Going to focus on staying within my frame and going slower with a good brace before trying to speed up. I suspect this poor posture is causing some issue with nose up and occasional turfing throws too.
Some positive takeaways from the last session were getting a better feel for the "door frame" portion and a better feeling shift while 'pulling on the door frame'. It feels like a good backswing and shift adds weight to the disc which can then be used coming out of the power pocket.
Somewhere I read on here a good throw described as "throwing anvils down the fairway" and I can start to see what they meant.
Yeah, posture is off - you're not getting leveraged on the rear side and the posture gets you yanked around on the drive side.
The sequence is a little wonky. You want the hammer to help pull your plant leg off the ground into the backswing and further help you get loaded up on that rear leg. Be patient and let the weight of the hammer/disc/arm do the work for you. It'll feel like you have much more time in the swing and are getting stretched out.
The off arm is dragging behind, which isn't helping because you can't get the rear shoulder to protract properly and aid your posture/balance heading into the swing. Would try to work on "don't spill the beverage."
In addition to any suggestions from others, this video helped me develop a lot more posture control in both directions over the last week and a half and I wish I spent more time with it before. You can do it with two hands on a kettlebell or your nice mallet there, then try it one-handed. Focus on getting the rear side loaded up/pulling your weight off the front foot whether you're using one or two hands.
New vids! Was really focusing on posture and staying within my feet/frame. In order to do so I slowed WAY down.
Hammer (technically a mallet) toss
It was super windy and I only had a few minutes in the field so this was my first and only toss. I tried to get a bit of that feel from the Shawn Clement video and really let the hammer do the work. The idea of letting the weight of the hammer pull my front foot off the ground is really helpful (even if not implemented properly yet!).
My goal was to NOT lean forward and stay within my frame. I think I did a decent job and was feeling like I was being much more efficient.
Later I got some throws focusing on the same concept:
Goal of these throws: stay within the frame. keep off arm tight Realization
In order to stay within my frame and not let my front shoulder leak over my front foot I had to think about what I was 'stopping' when I plant my front foot.
I started thinking about my front shoulder and getting it stopped behind my front foot. This helped me feel the whole chain up my body leading to that shoulder a lot more than I usually do. I'm not sure what I was trying to stop before but if was very nebulous and likely lead to a lack of consistency.
I was feeling the idea that the 'work' of the throw is over pretty quickly. It was almost as if by the time my arm came into my chest I was already done working and the actual outward swing and ejection were almost afterthoughts.
FIXES!
I'm coming up on to the ball of my front foot instead of down through the heel. I do a toe pivot instead of a heel pivot.
I'm going 'up' when pushing off my front foot. Very related to the first point.
I think I should be transferring this energy into my front hip more. Going to revisit the rocking the hips thread and try to stick my butt out further (+butt wipe drill!)
I'm very upright. I'm going to experiment with a slightly more bent at the waist posture - titled twirl starbust thingy.
Overall though I'm feeling good about how slow and back to basics I've gone and the baby steps I'm going through to get a good throw.
Starting to look a little more like a connected swing of the hammer and a kind of brace. Lots of exaggerated/excess motion trying to get other drill moves in there. For that particular drill, keep it slower and smaller and start getting in touch with the ground and how the hammer moves your weight around and vice versa like a metronome. There are some leg mechanics/sequence issues to address but let's see what it looks like after you try to quiet/smooth it out.
Not sure you want to keep the shoulder stopped "behind" the right foot is depending on what you mean. You want it to swing from the brace, but swing the hammer/disc forward over the knees- seabas22 one leg drill. Agree that you appear still too upright in the downswing/getting the front hip in the way rather than dropping into the plant and hinging from that hip.
Not sure you want to keep the shoulder stopped "behind" the right foot is depending on what you mean. You want it to swing from the brace, but swing the hammer/disc forward over the knees- seabas22 one leg drill.
Yeah totally agree. Stopping the shoulder behind the foot is like a stepping stone swing thought for me. It was what I thought of as a way to keep myself insidey frame. I actually watched some slo mo pro drives after I posted to see where their shoulder ended up and "behind the plant foot" is definitely NOT what is happening lol.
BUT once I used that swing thought I actually started being able to feel more "connection" down my entire body from the shoulder. So next time I'm out I'll probably update this swing thought to something closer to the 'ideal' swing.
Thanks for the quick responses! Very helpful to bounce these ideas off of you.
Feeling the posterior and anterior slings stretch and release helped me connect my upper body together in a more whip like motion. I was focusing on the rear shoulder and front hip separating and stretching that sling. Particularly the rear shoulder moving back as the front hip moves forward and then attempting to use the swim move to unwind the sling (and wind the opposite set).
I think I'm pulling my front hip forward and too open while doing this right now as my throws went far left with this approach. Timing the sling release to hit the release point is something I need to play with.
Attempting to incorporate more of a weight shift is really awkward and difficult for now. I tried a few with a step and couldn't really keep the sling feeling with it.
Maintaining Tension
I was playing with a dog leash and trying to keep the leash taut from backswing to 'throw'. This really emphasized the need to be smooth and not try to accelerate too early. Translating it to a disc gave me the feeling of really exploding out of the power pocket and how slow-feeling the movement into the power pocket can be while still being powerful (see: slowing down the beto drill).
This was also an interesting exercise for trying to place the release point / hit. It gives a really good idea of how timing the acceleration connects to the release point and allowed me to consider how every part of the throw before the acceleration ALSO affects the release point.
Correctly executing the backswing+into power pocket move seems like it will yield bigger benefits than focusing on the power pocket -> hit which is *not* how I have been thinking previously. I'm guessing that during different phases of form work different parts of the throw will have bigger returns on investment. For me right now I'm really interested in building a good power pocket and letting everything flow from there.
THINGS TO WORK ON:
* Continue trying to be smooth into the power pocket and accelerating out even if the move into the power pocket feels terribly slow
* work on timing the shift/sling to get the ideal release point
* Re-visit crush the can + how vertical forces create rotation (hello Dr. Kwon!). I'm not using much if any vertical force right now
Your forward pump has the shoulders/chest too open to target, so your swing is cutting across your stance.
Keep closed when pumping and pump it out wider to your right(LHBH).
Your backswing then goes too diagonal \ for anything other than a big left to right hyzer.
Distance lines should swing back on the opposite diagonal /.
Excellent feedback. That forward pump has been a problem I have failed to correct for a while now. Will focus on the pump->backswing angles more. Just playing with the feeling inside I this seems like it will also help address my weight staying on my front heel instead of getting up on my toes which is a persistent problem as well.
Was just watching that new video from your initial post of it, excited to try it out
boy howdy that forward pump and backswing are really important! I was kind of brushing it off before thinking, "yeah whatever, that's just the setup for the REAL part of the throw". How wrong I was!
The pump has a big influence on where the backswing goes which in turn has a big influence on where the 'downswing' goes. Keeping my shoulder closed more on the pump and the backswing not as diagonal really opened up access to straighter throws.
I was working on accuracy throwing at a backstop. Key takeaway is the importance of getting to the power pocket at the same time the shoulders are pointing at the target (roughly). If my shoulders were too closed at the power pocket the throw would go off to the right (left hand back hand). If my shoulders were too open it would be off to the left. Knowing this makes the 'aiming with your shoulder/elbow' make a lot more sense. You can only consistently aim and hit lines if your form is consistent (duh).
For example in this throw, my shoulders were a little too closed at the 'power pocket' stage and the throw ends up going more to the right than I intended. I'm really excited to drill this.
Tried out the reverse stride drill as well and found it really useful. Got some video for it, this are the first few throws of attempting it.
Definitely helps feel the weightshift and the linear motion better than other things I've tried. I found myself not actually taking a shorter stride for the throw at first. It was helpful for me to put a marker down to where I wanted my foot to land which you see me doing with discs in the video.
It really emphasizes how sllloooowww things can feel. It feels like an eternity between when the foot lands and when I actually throw and staying patient to maintain and direct the energy is key. I could feel much more energy available with this, kind of like a slow moving landslide. Tough to harness it though, I was often leaning and falling forward out of my frame and turfing discs or rushing too much and not using the energy. Excited to drill this further too!
*edit - one more piece. I'm making a point to get that gangly off arm under control and work for me in the swing. Occasionally I remember to control it and have way better throws when I do but I'll be trying to control it for EVERY throw going forward. Writing this to make myself embarrassed if I post more videos with a wacky waving right arm again.
Your rear leg looks like its posting up too early into the backswing. I think you're getting caught between your hips like I was rather than letting your CoG swing freely like a pendulum between your legs. Watch how SW22 bobs back and forth very horizontally and moves very easily between his legs over that wide range of motion.
Let your initial stance get deeper back - settle into the stance butt back not down. Otherwise you can't get your bottom to swing back and forth in the pendulum.
Your legs look stiff, might help to try this. Bounce a bit up and down letting each joint pogo, then start shifting back and forth between the legs like I do in the first 20s or so here. You can then get progressively lower and wider like Reverse Stride. This helped me get the fundamental pogo action, which is hard to see in developed players since its so small and fast, into my legs.
The more comfortable you are getting you butt back and deep into the stance and pogo back and forth while leveraged between your feet, the easier it is to move like SW22 in Reverse swing.
I think I'm finally feeling the 'pump' and was focusing on it in these throws. Good throws have started to feel more like throwing a ball or beanbag on an arc rather than a frisbee. In these throws I wasn't thinking about throwing the disc at all. I was focusing on the weight of my arm/disc, getting my weight forward and pumping my body through the swing. As a swing thought it is WAY simpler than thinking about the disc and if my body was set up right and I didn't rush the disc went pretty much where I wanted it to go.
I jjuuust started trying to incorporate a little tiny swim move which is in the last throw. It FELT like I was doing a huge GG like movement and then on film it is barely there. Feels vs. Reals! However even from that movement I felt a pretty noticeable difference in the swing.
Plan for next sessions is to try to slowly add more weight/speed to the pump without screwing up accuracy and to start to add at least a little swim move to every throw. These throws were about 100ft into a specific area of the backstop I was aiming for. As my pump gets better I'll move back and hopefully keep the same accuracy at 150 and 200ft.
I included one throw where I pulled it left. My frame analysis is below. I rushed through it and started bringing my arm forward too soon. Very subtle differences from a 'good' throw but a big change in outcome.
I've been exploring how to get rid of this 'jacked up' posture in which my front shoulder get smushed up by my ear:
I think I've been able to do it and feel a big difference in my throws and especially a connection with the ground.
2 things helped:
1. keeping my shoulders back and my chest open more during the whole throw. This is fighting my 'sitting on a computer all day' posture.
2. Connecting the energy from my feet to my hips and core and then letting my hips and core connect to my upper body. Previously I was trying to connect my feet to my shoulder. This is much more of a mental imagery / swing thought change. I feel a lot less floppy and squishy and much more of a full connection through my body in this way.
Both of these changes are helping me use my arm as a passive sling in a much better way. Hoping to get to the field to throw and video this week. I played a round yesterday and was hitting lines more often than usual and having a little bit of turn and almost no fade on my Mako3 on most throws.
