Backhand Form Check - I've tasted the nectar

[DrBone]

New video




New feelings and changes

Got rid of that shoulder jam I called out in the previous post!

I felt I was butt-wiping way better and getting a much better feel of the weight shift. I was really feeling the momentum loading on my frontside with the start of the butt-wipe and then it flowing up through my body as I pushed against the ground.

I got a much better feel for this by throwing at like 20% power and barely turning back at all (think 100 foot upshot). When I was losing the feeling I could use this mental image to get it back. This shot by Paul McBeth is a good example. I find it really clear to see how the shift happens here more-so than in big drives https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cmdqJ4_WsU&t=1165s

Things to try for next time
I think I need to "keep the lid on" and get a better extension in front of me. Comparing to Seabass I see I am very upright still even when throwing hyzers:

Also need to get that off arm working better.

Then I think I will re-visit Crush The Can to start to try and add more power to this motion.

 

[DrBone]

Can Can Drill!

The drill


It was way tougher than it looked. I think I got better at it over the session and using it in throws. The challenge for me staying in balance while getting a full extension kick. I was tipping back pretty far which actually felt more powerful but as I review the drill I am not sure I should tip that far.

Throws


These are some can-can throws which to be honest felt AMAZING. I was able to feel much more power and pressure on my plant leg and I could feel the disc coming out with a lot more zip on it. In a few of the throws there I tried to keep the can-can feeling without actually can-can-ing which worked pretty good.

I think a big part of it is that my backswing has a better buttwipe and turn to it. My off-shoulder is moving closer to the target and I'm not opening up as early.

The last 2 throws in that video were a pair of Leopards that each went between 280-310 into a slight headwind which is 30-60 feet farther than I have been able to throw before so there is some very clear improvements in power.

Also tried some crush the can drills a few days before the above session:



Again WAY harder than I expected. My tendency was really to fall over the top. The first crush was better (even though I forgot to finish drinking it first). But the second was more indicative of how the rest of the cans got crushed. It is a kind of an absurd comedy doing this drill, stumbling around half crushing cans.

It emphasized getting the upper and lower body connected and how easy it is to get "over the top". For me I started feeling/visualizing my weight shift more at the hip and lining the upper body up to move down through that hip and into my heel. This kept me from leading with my upper body and going over the top.

 

[DrBone]

Another thing the can-can has helped improve is "keeping the lid on" and getting a better extension over my plant foot. This is a comparison of from my last post to this last session:

 

[sidewinder22]

Can Can - you are kicking very late at the end. Your knee extends way after it passes the foot on ground. You should kick earlier right over/thru the foot or ball/can on ground.

Double Dragon - your leg kick is ahead of your arm backswing. Arm swing should lead/pull the leg kick.

Crush the Can - Your rear heel is stuck on ground and tipping your upper body over. See Best Downswing Weightshift and Tilted Spiral #2.

 

[DrBone]

The second throw in that clip is one my better throws ever.



That clip shows a more typical throw lacking a solid brace. I end up going over the end of the teepad on both throws.


This is a drill session really focusing on getting the weight into the heel.

Back in the form lab. I played around with a much more vertical 'hop' going through the X-Step and I can feel WAY more power on tap, like I'm actually getting power out of the ground which I wasn't before. Crush the Can now makes way more sense.

I'm still leaning forward and falling over by brace though. More power means more power to try to control. I feel much more like a passenger just trying to keep my body parts in the right positions while all the momentum flows through it.

I also seem to be ending up with my weight on the ball and toes of my plant foot rather than the heel, which leads to some form of "jamming" and instead of following through I just kind of smash into myself. This leads to a lot of inconsistency in the throws too because I'm falling over forward so can't be a solid point to sling the disc from.

I'm going to keep working on getting my momentum braced better and not falling over the plant which I think goes hand in hand with getting the weight into the heel. I'm thinking Figure 8 drill and maybe crush the can now that I have a better idea of how it translates to the swing.

Another challenge is that I have and could use some advice on is that lots of my throws come out low. When I try to compensate by aiming higher often time it ends up with a weak late release noob hyzer kind of throw instead. I'm hoping better overall posture through the swing will help with this as well but I can't pinpoint anything in particular to work on.

 

[Brychanus]

1. You need to get your whole body moving and rocking back and forth more. You're a little trapped between your feet.

Do you see how his forearm is angled "up" when he lands with that little pause and then swings? But that the reason his arm is angled that way is because of his whole posture? This is what causes discs to get loft/not throw too low and is a fundamental basis of getting power from your whole body. Notice it only works if you shift all your mass as a unit like he does there. Almost everyone has trouble with this move, don't be too hard on yourself.

2. Part of the problem is that you're shrinking way down into the ground in the backswing but instead you should be feeling like you're "levitating". The trick is getting compressed into the rear leg while the backswing helps "levitate" you and while your weight shifts forward.



3. A little more Elephant walk might not be a bad idea to keep working on swing tempo and patience heading into the backswing while shifting your weight. You're kind of out of balance and rushing the rhythm overall. Pay attention to how it feels like the disc is pulling your weight "up" relative to the ground ("levitating") in the backswing. It should feel nice and slow and heavy swinging each way. Patience.

 

[DrBone]

Great advice Brychanus - "ride the bull" makes a lot more sense to me now in this context and seems to pinpoint my issue of throwing low.

I played a round yesterday and did a spot of form work afterwards focusing on "levitating" in the backswing and going slow. These are a couple throws just trying to feel the momentum, levitation and slow timing. I think I'm still moving to fast during the throw but I was getting the heavy disc feel a lot more. I'll be focusing on riding the bull to get the throw height correct and achieving better posture and weight distribution through the whole throw for the next few sessions.

 

[sidewinder22]

I would stop with the x-step and work on moving between your two feet like Double Dragon/Ride the Bull. Need more symmetry moving back and forth more balanced/centered inside feet/posture.

 

[DrBone]

Got out to do some drills today focused on riding the bull and a bit of hammer swings

Riding the bull + Hammer Tosses


Two and a half drills there:
1. Ride the bull - trying to feel the momentum going side to side and catching it on my heel without 'tipping over'. It feels quite awkward to be honest but that probably means my current swing doesn't have enough of this concept in it.

2. Hammer swings - I bring the hammer in next and try to flow from ride the bull into hammer swings follow by a one legged hammer toss.

When I "throw" at 0:42 seconds I had the idea that I would flow back and forth symmetrically and then when I wanted to throw I would flow into the backswing and start moving forward rapidly (out of rhythm) to create more lag/strech/doorframe kind of feeling. I don't know if that concept is correct though. It looks a bit awkward on tape.




Can-Cans and some "knee pinch" throws trying to stay inside my feet more


I did more "extreme" can-cans before this but was falling off balance really quickly so what you see here are very mild kicks which don't go to far outside my body. I definitely noticed A LOT of momentum and force going into the plant legs during this drill. I also noticed that I am much worse at catching my momentum on my left leg (plant leg, I'm southpaw) than I am on my right.

I started to get a much better feeling for shifting my weight in a way to would cause my body and arm to "smash" forward and naturally put my into a power pocket type position. previously I felt like my momentum was shifting more towards the 1 or 2 o'clock position rather than 12 o'clock (as a lefty and taking the line between my two feet as the 12 - 6 axis)

I tried to take the can can feeling into some stand-still "knee pinch" throws really emphasizing staying within my feet and visualizing a hockey stop.


It was a useful session, I think spending more time with the can cans, getting better balance and working on catch that momentum more efficiently is where I will continue to spend time.

 

[DrBone]

Dropping a note to myself here to do some elephant walks next session to work on timing and dynamic posture

 

[sidewinder22]

RTB - Stance looks a bit wide and you get sloppy and jumpy. Turn more backwards/butt into the landing both directions, you are landing too open with the lead hip both ways.

Hammer - the last toss looked the best from behind, the earlier ones were rushed and muscled and way too open at release. Slow down. Effortless swing and toss/release.

Can Can - way too much jumping/jack in the box action. Swing the legs more extended/relaxed knees, less bend and snap / less kick with knees.

 

[DrBone]

RTB - Stance looks a bit wide and you get sloppy and jumpy. Turn more backwards/butt into the landing both directions, you are landing too open with the lead hip both ways.

I think I was doing more of a "lateral hop" type exercise rather than riding a bull. Would a mental cue like "be godzilla smashing **** with his tail" seem to invoke more of the right hip and butt movement? That's what popped into my head immediately, that and skiing moguls.

Glad to hear the rear view hammer toss looked good as it felt very good as well, very effortless.

I'm dropping this excellent post from Brychanus from another thread here that I think is very relevant to me. It covers getting "stacked" and the inside posture with lots of key Seabass clips.
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3890309&postcount=3

 

[Brychanus]

^ maybe. I might amend:

"be godzilla smashing **** with his tail" by leading with his mAss to shift onto the leg.

Depending on what you had in mind you might have ended up with the opposite action by 'wagging' your tail at the target. Whatever you meant, you want your mAss to shift in "from behind" and swing something around from the pocket in front of your chest, not shift from in front and then swing something from behind your back. Looks like any of these:

This is a fundamental aspect of "easy power." SW recently pointed out that his own BH was at one point "too rotational". I took the time to study that more and concluded that the thing SW had mastered was the "mAss lead" and "buttwipe" part of the move, which is a significant basis of swing power. You really want access to that power before getting too cute IMHO. mAss lead. Easy power. Throwing with the whole body to eject the light disc. Squaring the move back up like the top throwers just adds additional leverage and shift efficiency to the move.

Your ass should basically function like the counterweight of a trebuchet when you plant to swing, swinging your arm through at low effort. It's a much more "ballistic" body move - just like a trebuchet - than most developing players throw. I think all the top players have this same effect, just much more tightened up so it's usually not the first thing that most learners notice. Part of that is because your ass remains more horizontal (but not entirely if you swing in tilted axis)!) to the ground than a trebuchet counterweight. But this effect is IMHO certainly there:

The posture in some sense is about optimizing this "trebuchet quotient" in your swing, like you're keen to here. In that sense, the legs are mostly just helping that mAss move targetward, then as you shift and swing just redirecting the force and yoking the arm and disc around like the trebuchet arm.

I'm dropping this excellent post from Brychanus from another thread here that I think is very relevant to me. It covers getting "stacked" and the inside posture with lots of key Seabass clips.
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3890309&postcount=3

Keep in mind that the "effortless" thing you're starting to feel with the hammer's work is never really done, and IMO time spent throwing things like hammers better is good for most adults who are serious about improving and have the patience for it. I have done a lot of drill moves that have helped me improve my own "stacking" in the shift and "mAss-lead" onto the leg and in most of those I now move pretty quick and easily dropping into the plant like when I box. But the specific problem of stacking and swinging out from the center leading with the mAss with just one arm in the BH direction is a weird thing in biomechanics. Heavy hammers can help make your body rather than your overanalytic adult brain ease into the task if you surrender to their lesson. I've seen plenty around here struggle to encode the lesson and in those cases it often appears that they didn't address or struggled to get the 'prerequisites' first and moved on for one reason or another.

 

[DrBone]

Thanks for the feedback - super helpful as always.

I had a quick 15 minute session earlier and did some more riding the bull and throws focused on the hammer toss feeling and being "stacked":

Bull ride


I was thinking a bit of the backswing "levitation" and the double crush the can. Moving slower and more deliberately.

Stacked Throws:


This is way different than my normal throws. I felt much more effortless, the "effort to velocity" ratio seemed much higher and it was much easier to stay behind my brace this way.

Compared to my previous session shows a big difference in posture. Almost looks a little TOO upright but I plan to try it out more next session and see what kind of feelings I get.

 

[sidewinder22]

Definitely getting better, I like your Godzilla dance!

1. Posture and balance still wonky. Your head is way over-turned in the backswing looking at sky, and your shoulder gets sucked back inside/behind your knee. Note how my posture is more relaxed and swinging shoulder more over top knee/foot while still loaded back inside posture. My nose is more over toes/disc.

2. You are trying to keep the arm/disc too artificially wide instead of letting it swing back more leveraged behind your chin/shoulder/elbow.

3. Your rear foot is trying to push too late and spinning out instead of everting. This causes you to stand up out of the shot/posture instead of staying down and rotating/pivoting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWasFdvnGio#t=6m5s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nu4CzVnITlo#t=5m57s

[SIZE=+1]Mike Maves aka sevam1[/SIZE]

• The Move
• The Move part 2: Ben Hogan Pivot
• Clinic @ Brookside
• The Navel
• The Navel Up Close
• The Right Foot
• Right Foot Eversion
• Right Foot Eversion Explained
  

[SIZE=+1]Steve Pratt[/SIZE]

• How the Power Stance is Killing Your Driving Distance
• Use the Ground for Massive Power in Your Golf Swing!
  
  

 

[DrBone]

Back at it - I spent some time against a wall on Inside Swing concepts and tried to incorporate them. Main topics for this session were:

* Inside Swing, keeping hips more in place and getting a good internal rotation and twisted up feeling in the upper body. This includes feeling the leverage on the rear foot during the backswing
* Keeping the disc less wide in the back swing
* Keeping my head from looking at the sky during the backswing.
* Some Can Cans without being a jack in the box



I think I made some progress, the "stacked up" feeling is getting stronger and I feel I'm shifting my weight in the proper direction. My foot is pivoting and my follow throughs seem much more like a proper swing now. Making a point of getting my front heel off the ground during the backswing helps with the shift and generating some power as well.

Not sure if my shoulder should still be a little more eastward out over my knee or not.

I think the disc can probably come in closer to my body still, a bit too wide. I do bring it in closer as I start to move forward though.

Inside Swing helped a lot with making my can-cans less rockette-like. I can feel and build more internal torque and feel the side bend in the can can a lot better now.

I tried to work on this critique as well:

3. Your rear foot is trying to push too late and spinning out instead of everting. This causes you to stand up out of the shot/posture instead of staying down and rotating/pivoting.

I wasn't able to make any intentional changes to my rear foot yet, but I found the more I shifted "downward" into my plant foot the less standing up and early vertical movement I had.

-------
I had a kind of epiphany with regards to the idea of "keeping the arm taut" through the swing. I never understood what this meant, but I now think I understand it better. If my arm is a string and my shoulder is the anchor, when I move the anchor forward I need to keep it from moving 'into' the string because that will remove all the tension. Instead treating the shoulder and arm like an olympic hammer or trebuchet allows me to get a really high acceleration force on my arm if timed properly.

I tried this in an exaggerated way with a hammer swing and tried to capture a do/don't Goofus and Gallant video to remind myself of this.

 

[DrBone]

Was rewatching some of those Mike Maves videos and got something new out of them with the eversion point you brought up Sidewinder.

In one video he talks about how many people get the backswing coiled up with lots of energy but when they start to shift they lose pressure on their backdoor and all that energy just dissipates before it can go into the swing. This really makes things click with the backswing.

It's like the backswing loads everything up and then you shift everything forward and use that energy to do the same thing in the opposite direction on the front side. For me shifting the energy from the coiled up backside into the front side without losing everything is where it seems I need work.

 

[DrBone]

Can't edit but meant to mention that this:

when they start to shift they lose pressure on their backdoor and all that energy just dissipates before it can go into the swing

I think is what you mean by "spinning out"

 

[DrBone]

Focusing bigtime on the rear foot pressure and screwing into the ground in the backswing. I was feeling this way more in my rear glute and could tell there was lots of power and tension stored.



I think my rear push is still way too late and I'm loosing my "stack". I had some better feeling throws when I waited what felt like a really long time between pushing off my backfoot and my front foot landing. And then waiting another really long time before having my upper body come through. I think I need expand these waits even longer.

Here is some picture evidence of areas to improve:

 

[Kennets]

I'm no SW or brychanus, so don't get to hang up on what I'm saying, but.

To me, the last throws in the video where you emulate throwing a hammer, that's the best ones (at least with my ****ty eyes). "Brace", swingplane, timing and posture is looking way better there, than the first couple of throws in the videos.

It's too early around here, so gonna have a deeper look later.