Backhand form critique request

[Salto]

This was a useful image by the way. It shows the counterbalance and timing of it. I think I let my hips unhinge in the forward swing. When I paid attention that I need to stay in that hinged posture longer I could feel my rear leg counterbalancing better. Which is the opposite of what happens when spinning out I suppose.

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[sidewinder22]

 

[Salto]

Thanks for the suggestion about falling into it. This does seem to help me with the reverse stride drill.

I've been getting a bit more comfortable with that drill and the changes to my posture. However whatever I seemed to do, my knee still was leaking over my toes as shown in this video:
https://youtu.be/Izr_JOThcCw
Based on that video I revisited the butt wipe and inside swing drill:
https://youtu.be/FWasFdvnGio
This drill allowed me to pay attention to my knee position carefully. I realised I have been doing some things all wrong which I believe are crucial. The movements I needed to do felt very unusual and different from what I have been doing. For example the amount of tilt I need to maintain and how my rear leg extends to get the rear butt forward. Here's an attempt at incorporating the butt wipe drill into a throw:
https://youtu.be/fuNWlU1td20

It is very hard and I'm wondering how it really works. I suppose with the butt wipe being against the wall it makes it possible to go through the motions before fixing balance issues. I'm wondering if you were to adopt this possition statically it would cause you to fall over backwards? The disc/arm swinging taut keeps you from falling backwards in a similar manner to how an olympic hammer thrower can lean backwards against the weight of the swinging hammer. Does throwing hyzer make this easier? Considering your spine is more in parallel with the ground and you can't fall up into the sky anyways?

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[Brychanus]

Developing the natural, fluid pattern back and forth is the goal, but it can be hard getting there. The trick is that the different parts of the body need to learn to help each other move and many things happen simultaneously like walking.

In your last vid there, I see movement toward buttwipe, though the drive leg lost its leverage and shoved your rear hip too soon into the backswing instead of maintaining leverage. Might help to describe the flow of action:

Heave & swing the arm and disc more into the backswing to get the leverage like reverse stride. Right now you're jabbing and leaning back a bit rather than swinging. Even when I use a straighter reachback now I still feel the swing action because I'm still rocking my whole body. Let the front foot push the ground away from you to assist the heave into the backswing. Be patient swinging back into the peak. The CoG should come higher off the ground before you start to fall forward and down into the plant. Fall onto the front foot like SW22 showed above and swing.

Don't want to overload you, but Clement really does nail so much of this. I like in this vid how he illustrates some one leg ideas. Pay attention to how his swing and backswing are helping to move his hips and weight around. I like how he talks about not trying to shift the weight - I think that's right, we want to adjust the moves and posture to get the shift to happen. This is one of the deep ideas in using pendula to learn and throw.

The disc/arm swinging taut keeps you from falling backwards in a similar manner to how an olympic hammer thrower can lean backwards against the weight of the swinging hammer. Does throwing hyzer make this easier? Considering your spine is more in parallel with the ground and you can't fall up into the sky anyways?

SW22 usually advises learning in hyzer first and I have always found that to teach me faster. As your posture & sequence work better and better as a unit it's surprisingly easy to make on-the-fly posture changes for different shots (still requires practice of course).

This would be a theoretical vertical spine and "Flat Swing Plane". It would be hard and awkward trying to shift from one foot to the other foot maintaining this flat swing plane as gravity works against you. This is why I say Flat doesn't really exist. It's also the most inconsistent angle you could attempt to throw on, 1 degree variation is either hyzer or anhyzer. If you want to throw on 10 degree hyzer or anhyzer and miss by +/- a couple degrees, it's not going to change your shot nearly as drastically.

Meanwhile this is totally natural and effortless and working with gravity:

 

[Salto]

Developing the natural, fluid pattern back and forth is the goal, but it can be hard getting there. The trick is that the different parts of the body need to learn to help each other move and many things happen simultaneously like walking.

In your last vid there, I see movement toward buttwipe, though the drive leg lost its leverage and shoved your rear hip too soon into the backswing instead of maintaining leverage. Might help to describe the flow of action:

Heave & swing the arm and disc more into the backswing to get the leverage like reverse stride. Right now you're jabbing and leaning back a bit rather than swinging. Even when I use a straighter reachback now I still feel the swing action because I'm still rocking my whole body. Let the front foot push the ground away from you to assist the heave into the backswing. Be patient swinging back into the peak. The CoG should come higher off the ground before you start to fall forward and down into the plant. Fall onto the front foot like SW22 showed above and swing.

Don't want to overload you, but Clement really does nail so much of this. I like in this vid how he illustrates some one leg ideas. Pay attention to how his swing and backswing are helping to move his hips and weight around. I like how he talks about not trying to shift the weight - I think that's right, we want to adjust the moves and posture to get the shift to happen. This is one of the deep ideas in using pendula to learn and throw.







SW22 usually advises learning in hyzer first and I have always found that to teach me faster. As your posture & sequence work better and better as a unit it's surprisingly easy to make on-the-fly posture changes for different shots (still requires practice of course).

I understand the fluid natural pattern back and forth is crucial. Yet I think I am not swinging with the correct posture and am hoping some of these more static drills, in my case buttwipe and inside swing will help me find positions that I can recognize and feel during the fluid swinging. I guess these more static drills like the doorframe, inside swing can be helpful with that. I felt my hips move quite different with the butt wipe/inside swing, it's been leading to some great results throwing big hyzers in the open. It also seemed to be reproducible enough that I had the most good drives during a tournament. However I haven't managed to incorporate it with a good backswing yet. The progress I made on those backswings with the reverse stride drill were great. I think if I manage to combine this posture on the downswing with the backswing from the reverse stride the results may be amazing. I feel I need to work on this butt wipe and make it come more automatic.

Don't worry about overloading, I really enjoy watching Shawn Clements videos! And reading your explanations! You have a talent for explaining things well, so very much appreciated.

 

[Salto]

https://youtu.be/rsMP10URbOk

It's been a while, and my form has changed a lot. I would be interested to hear your comments.

I got a pocket radar and used it in the rear view. Speed is in KPH, so the throw was around 62 MPH. Distances are good for the speeds if I compare them to Simon's arm speed video, so I think my angles are good and I should work on general improvements.

Main changes are: upper body posture; I guess I was slouching a bit before. Backswing is much higher now. I noted becore that a low reachback should help with nose angle, but it turns the higher backswing is performing and feeling better.

 

[Brychanus]

WB!

I see progress in many parts.

You've got some of that common horse-stance-like pushing or shoving action off the rear leg leaving everything dragging behind you and swinging over the top of the front leg. Ricky's getting more of a fluid roll off his rear foot with the off arm helping collect his mass into the brace.

Might give similar advice to what SW gave NDK recently:

I would focus on this move.. tucking the rear elbow to hip while rear foot rolls inward and knee bends.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mpp7ZFLHK90#t=9m40s

 

[sidewinder22]

Overswinging the backswing, ends up too high and your upper body tips over into the plant to pull the arm instead of your butt leading the pull.

 

[Salto]

Thanks again to the both of you.

@Brychanus
I think the elbow to hip may be interesting to try. With the off arm I'm always wondering whether movements with it either causing or are the symptom of good form. But the way you put it as in collecting the mass into the brace is compelling.
Not sure what to do with the horse stance bit, just trying to get into a comfortable stance for the most part.

@SW22
Ahh I see it clearly now that you mention it about leading with the butt instead of the upper body. I may have worried a bit too much about not tipping over backwards and am now doing the opposite mistake.
Regarding the overly high backswing. I noticed that and have been planning to work on it. I think even though it's overdone it makes a better starting point than my previous backswing. So lets see if I can tone it down. I was just wondering in which way I should. Hopefully leading with the butt will be key.

 

[Brychanus]

Thanks again to the both of you.

@Brychanus
I think the elbow to hip may be interesting to try. With the off arm I'm always wondering whether movements with it either causing or are the symptom of good form. But the way you put it as in collecting the mass into the brace is compelling.
Not sure what to do with the horse stance bit, just trying to get into a comfortable stance for the most part.

@SW22
Ahh I see it clearly now that you mention it about leading with the butt instead of the upper body. I may have worried a bit too much about not tipping over backwards and am now doing the opposite mistake.
Regarding the overly high backswing. I noticed that and have been planning to work on it. I think even though it's overdone it makes a better starting point than my previous backswing. So lets see if I can tone it down. I was just wondering in which way I should. Hopefully leading with the butt will be key.

I also thought of DFD and load the bow for you but was less sure since I'm not used to looking at backswings that high. You'll probably get a lot out of DFD grabbing the frame near your belly button. If you watch SW he'll have his hips set up with butt fully leading before the swing commits. That makes it easier to get the drop and swing off the rear side. Not to be a broken record but I personally have found that and related issues easier to work on in standstills 100% of the time. I still find working on the x-step more effective right after I do drill moves/standstills and then trying to find the same thing in the x-step. I'm moving back to a 50/50 ratio each session.

I think it's true that off arms trailing are often related to upstream causes. I like how SW teaches to get rolling off the rear foot w/ that off arm move in general because it can help train the body to do that as a unit, and it tends to help beat the horse-stancey stuff. It'll probably work better after some time with the frame.

 

[Salto]

I also thought of DFD and load the bow for you but was less sure since I'm not used to looking at backswings that high. You'll probably get a lot out of DFD grabbing the frame near your belly button. If you watch SW he'll have his hips set up with butt fully leading before the swing commits. That makes it easier to get the drop and swing off the rear side. Not to be a broken record but I personally have found that and related issues easier to work on in standstills 100% of the time. I still find working on the x-step more effective right after I do drill moves/standstills and then trying to find the same thing in the x-step. I'm moving back to a 50/50 ratio each session.

I think it's true that off arms trailing are often related to upstream causes. I like how SW teaches to get rolling off the rear foot w/ that off arm move in general because it can help train the body to do that as a unit, and it tends to help beat the horse-stancey stuff. It'll probably work better after some time with the frame.

Thanks again for the useful input. I've feel that the off arm is mainly, but not entirely, a result of a good throw. However I can give it some help by consciously putting it in a ready to do swim move position. That is followed by a subconscious completion of the swim move if the rest of the body is engaged properly. I guess holding it in that ready for swim move position improves my posture, including keeping my elbow close to my hip. It also prevents me from overdoing the backswing which is an issue for me.

 

[Salto]

More progress!

https://youtu.be/04_MKlTqwbg

It took me a while to lead more with the butt versus the upper body. The key was to load better in the backswing with my left hip. I think it shows in these vids. Still a bit of horse stance and inefficient off arm motion that I managed to tackle in other sessions. I think I can put that all together and get some more gains.

Thanks again! Very helpful tips!

 

[sidewinder22]

Backswing looks rushed/staccato and over leaning back away. Smooth it out more rhythmically and maintain tighter center/balance.

 

[Salto]

Backswing looks rushed/staccato and over leaning back away. Smooth it out more rhythmically and maintain tighter center/balance.

Thanks, I think I see what you mean. The recent changes still require all my focus to maintain. But this will be something to work on and hopefully some of it will smoothen out by the time I've built some more muscle memory.

 

[Salto]

It has been a while. I feel a good amount of change in my technique since the last time I did a form check here.

Running into a specific issue, literally. As it is preventing me from doing run ups or bringing more momentum into my x step. As you can see in my 3-step, I am planting very early during my backswing. It seems I am planted before even the halfway point of my arm swinging from pump into the 'top' of my backswing. Any ideas what could be the cause of this or what I can do to fix it?

 

[Brychanus]

It has been a while. I feel a good amount of change in my technique since the last time I did a form check here.

Running into a specific issue, literally. As it is preventing me from doing run ups or bringing more momentum into my x step. As you can see in my 3-step, I am planting very early during my backswing. It seems I am planted before even the halfway point of my arm swinging from pump into the 'top' of my backswing. Any ideas what could be the cause of this or what I can do to fix it?

WB!

I kind of want to give you a big picture/overcorrection because you are getting kind of rhythmic but then breaking it, getting very heavy in both feet, then suddenly heaving the disc back and then forward again. You need a full-body reminder about how to move naturally & in harmony with gravity (which you probably do fine when walking).

I recommend and am curious to see what happens if you throw in this overhead windmill X-step:


But focus on throwing the disc more directly down the line (green arrow) and perpendicular(ish) to your plant foot (blue line) rather than over the top of your brace (red arrow). You should feel very "light" in your x-step in transition and then still get plenty of leverage in your plant to swing.


You should feel like the disc going up is helping you "levitate" lighter through the X-step in smooth rhythm, then carry through that momentum in the plant.

I'm a big fan of what the windmill x-step fundamentally teaches and I think it can help most people in the long run, but you'll probably improve faster at some of this if you the majority of your time working on the standstills to fully encode the point of "Dingle Arm." There's a lot of sequence noise in your system right now and you want everything moving more naturally in rhythm. You also are missing out on almost all of the "free power" in the vertical part of the move. Throw directly out of Dingle Arm for a bit extremely vertical (elbow swinging directly across/over your toes) and forget about where the disc is going for a bit.

 

[Salto]

This seems like a great idea. I have tried the windmill a long time ago that I almost forgot about it. However I am pretty sure at that time I was not ready for it. Now I think is a great time to revisit it. Will report back with some results. Thank you!

 

[sidewinder22]

You are doing a reverse weightshift. Pay attention to post #2 and how my right knee moves opposite of yours in the backswing.

Elephant Walk Drill

Drill to help make weightshift and swinging as easy as walking. This drill really helps on uphill tees or lies like this hole where walking targetward makes it hard to get forward balanced on front leg. If you are walking sideways along with the hill then it is easier to shift forward and...

www.dgcoursereview.com

 

[Salto]

You are doing a reverse weightshift. Pay attention to post #2 and how my right knee moves opposite of yours in the backswing.

Elephant Walk Drill

Drill to help make weightshift and swinging as easy as walking. This drill really helps on uphill tees or lies like this hole where walking targetward makes it hard to get forward balanced on front leg. If you are walking sideways along with the hill then it is easier to shift forward and...

www.dgcoursereview.com

That is so interesting and this clocked for me very quickly. I knew I was doing something right and getting great results, but I was doing something in reverse. I tried to 'unreverse' my throw, and it is working pretty well so far. Will also share some more progress on this aspect after I put some work in. Thank you!