Ball Golf Course Tolerance

[araytx]

I disagree. Interacting with these pros might be a part of "growing the sport"... but ultimately it is always about the money. Which means creating revenue. Getting views online is probably the biggest potential to create more revenue for the sport, other than people simply buying more discs. More views means more potential for advertisers which is always where the money is. Even in the big professional sports it is where the money is. How much does a 30 second ad at the superbowl cost? Millions of dollars for a short commercial.

So continuing to create better disc golf videos/tournament coverage will create more fans and more views. I still give credit to everyone that is putting on these tournaments at golf courses and trying to do best with what they may have available, but I think everyone would much rather watch all the rounds at Masters cup at the DG course as opposed to the golf course. Watching courses such as Maple hill is going to keep peoples interest way more than any ball golf course.

I've heard that comment continually. My question is, "what evidence do you have to support it," other than your opinion? We just finished GBO and the final round had the highest online viewership for FPO live ever, and the highest online viewership for MPO live ever. SO apparently people who watch disc golf watched in greater abundance than they have in the past.

Thoughts?

 

[toddnick]

uSDGC

I started this thread and was at USDGC and Worlds last year...

smugglers Notch is perfect...Brewster is top notch woods golf and Fox Run with the new holes added has 5 or 6 wooded holes and a dozen bomber holes...a true test of golf... Hard to imagine a better place for Worlds with both courses on the same property...

USDGC is a great tournament, great tradition, well run, meticulous grounds...but I was underwhelmed with the course...I like holes 1-6, 15, 17, and 18 a lot....two great finishing holes...but the other 9 holes I'd put in the same category of the ball golf courses, all roped OB and sidewalks and buildings...unattractive middle section for sure...how about 2 rounds here and two rounds at Renny Gold, which I played when I was out there (less than an hour drive).

 

[DanJon]

People watched live because it was available and it was also a close tournament in both divisions.

 

[JC17393]

I started this thread and was at USDGC and Worlds last year...

smugglers Notch is perfect...Brewster is top notch woods golf and Fox Run with the new holes added has 5 or 6 wooded holes and a dozen bomber holes...a true test of golf... Hard to imagine a better place for Worlds with both courses on the same property...

USDGC is a great tournament, great tradition, well run, meticulous grounds...but I was underwhelmed with the course...I like holes 1-6, 15, 17, and 18 a lot....two great finishing holes...but the other 9 holes I'd put in the same category of the ball golf courses, all roped OB and sidewalks and buildings...unattractive middle section for sure...how about 2 rounds here and two rounds at Renny Gold, which I played when I was out there (less than an hour drive).

To the bolded...because the organizers can't pull off the event that they want to run if they split it between two venues, especially ones that are 45 minutes apart. With such an event, where do you centralize the event, Rock Hill or Charlotte? By that I mean, where is the player meeting, the host hotel, other extracurricular activities? Near Renny, near Winthrop, or somewhere in between? Not to mention double the amount of work involved prepping the courses, staffing the event, etc.

You alluded to it in your praise of Smugglers' Notch...everything all contained at one venue. Unfortunately, there aren't a large number of venues that boast two courses of that caliber on site, let alone offers the other amenities that the resort does (specifically having lodging, food, entertainment, and the golf all included at the venue). So where we lack those caliber venues, we make do with what we do have.

Maybe when (if) we get to a point where we have more worthy venues than weekends on the calendar, we can be more selective of where the big events are held. Until then, we're going to have to live with courses that are less than perfect from an aesthetic perspective.

 

[Mspot]

Disc golf continues to grow and we will hopefully continue to see more and more views and fans every year. I would ask you what makes watching DG on ball golf courses more appealing?

 

[araytx]

People watched live because it was available and it was also a close tournament in both divisions.

So you're saying that if Maple Hill or Masters or whatever wooded course event has live coverage, that if they have a close tournament going into the final day they'll exceed the GBO's numbers? right?

Disc golf continues to grow and we will hopefully continue to see more and more views and fans every year. I would ask you what makes watching DG on ball golf courses more appealing?

The question you're asking doesn't really apply for me. It's not that I think watching DG on ball golf courses is (in general) either more appealing or less appealing. When I watch, I like watching a QUALITY disc golf experience. Ball golf course, woods course, links course, park-style course isn't the determining factor, so I can't say I prefer one over the other as an end-all/be-all.

But to answer regarding the GBO, first, my personal skill is at woods play. So I am seing it from that perspective. The GBO has evolved and like other events the course changes at ECC made it challenging and unlike what people like to generalize about ball golf course. It wasn't a hyzer fest. They moved several tee boxes to make it where you still needed power but you had to have all the shots -- power flat, power hyzer and power anhyzer. From what I saw only holes 4, 6, 11, 13, & 15 had RHBH hyzer as the advantageous throw off the tee. There were other holes where you COULD throw big power hyzer, but those also brought danger into play. Seeing the great shots, the movement on the top card, who was there, better commentators than earlier lives this year, etc., made it more watchable for me. It isn't JUST about the courses. But ECC WAS interesting, even though it wasn't Maple Hill- or WACO- or DeLa-like woods. I must also add that as an older guy, it was nice seeing JohnE McCray hang with the young guys for a while.

Now, Mspot, you asked me and I answered. I'd like to see your answer to my question.

 

[toddnick]

Quote JC17393...because the organizers can't pull off the event that they want to run if it is split it between two venues, especially if they are 45 minutes apart...

They do this at Worlds all the time...see Pittsburgh with Deer Lakes and Moraine, and many more...even Worlds in Peoria this year...

Yes, better to have at one facility...again, Smuggs is the best (I am planning on hitting Worlds and Green Mountain this year)...

It can be done...and I would want to go back to USDGC a lot more if they threw Renaissance Gold in there...

 

[JC17393]

Quote JC17393...because the organizers can't pull off the event that they want to run if it is split it between two venues, especially if they are 45 minutes apart...

They do this at Worlds all the time...see Pittsburgh with Deer Lakes and Moraine, and many more...even Worlds in Peoria this year...

Yes, better to have at one facility...again, Smuggs is the best (I am planning on hitting Worlds and Green Mountain this year)...

It can be done...and I would want to go back to USDGC a lot more if they threw Renaissance Gold in there...

I didn't say it can't be done at all. Obviously multi-venue events can be pulled off with aplomb. The key phrase in what I said is they can't pull off the event that they want to run if it's split between two venues. Worlds =/= USDGC.

I think what gets lost is the USDGC was started to be something different from Worlds and most other big events of the time. It was something that was new and different compared to the status quo of the time. Their intention was to offer one great course for the best of the best rather than a variety to try to cover all the bases.

Since it was created, there have been a bunch more events created or have arisen to higher status that are in the same vein/set-up so the USDGC doesn't necessarily stand out for that anymore. Most of the events on the DGPT fit into that description partly because Steve Dodge has a similar vision to Harold Duvall of a single venue at the heart of an event.

My point is that the people behind the USDGC have a vision for what their event is, and it would not be the same event and perhaps they would not have the same passion for it if they played half of it at some other course.

 

[toddnick]

I agree that it would not be the same event...and obviously, people want things to be as they have been, as it is easier and more lucrative to have the event at one place...

The Masters is a great course that ball golfers go to every year...no complaints...it is a magnificent course...

I would argue that Winthrop Gold is a great test but not a magnificent course...it is a good course that has limitations in terms of appeal to the viewer and spectator (what I mentioned before plus roads along a few holes)...I have no problem with Jarva having 4 rounds or Konopiste being played on one course...but Winthrop doesn't match these two courses...

I think that it is fine but would be better for anyone other than the tournament staff if they added some variety to watching four rounds on holes 7-14...it would be a better major tournament...

 

[toddnick]

By the way, really liked the new course that they put in the Utah Open...had no idea that The Fort was part of the event...

Just watched the coverage of the second round...a few too many par 3s but two holes were temporary based on water issues, maybe they would be par 4s or 5s...but really challenging and fun to watch course...great woods golf mostly and hole 16 is stunning...island hole with incredible views...good job CCDG on the coverage...

Maybe I'll hit 2020 Worlds after all, a few rounds here would make it a lot better...

 

[perklc]

We just finished GBO and the final round had the highest online viewership for FPO live ever, and the highest online viewership for MPO live ever. SO apparently people who watch disc golf watched in greater abundance than they have in the past.

Thoughts?

I wouldn't expect most other tournaments to do better than GBO, but that doesn't necessarily mean I think that people would rather watch a ball golf course. GBO has things going for it that other tournaments don't, namely it has the DD hype-train behind it. Some love it, others get annoyed by it, but there is no doubt that DD is everywhere with their media, hyping the crap out of their events.

Additionally, it's placed in a great time of year where a large part of the country is having hit or miss weather, so people aren't as likely to be out playing their own rounds. In fact it was snowing in much of the upper Midwest during the final round (personally it was the only reason I turned on the live feeds).

 

[DavidSauls]

I didn't say it can't be done at all. Obviously multi-venue events can be pulled off with aplomb. The key phrase in what I said is they can't pull off the event that they want to run if it's split between two venues. Worlds =/= USDGC.

I think what gets lost is the USDGC was started to be something different from Worlds and most other big events of the time. It was something that was new and different compared to the status quo of the time. Their intention was to offer one great course for the best of the best rather than a variety to try to cover all the bases.

Since it was created, there have been a bunch more events created or have arisen to higher status that are in the same vein/set-up so the USDGC doesn't necessarily stand out for that anymore. Most of the events on the DGPT fit into that description partly because Steve Dodge has a similar vision to Harold Duvall of a single venue at the heart of an event.

My point is that the people behind the USDGC have a vision for what their event is, and it would not be the same event and perhaps they would not have the same passion for it if they played half of it at some other course.

Plus, they're likely to hang their hat on their success.

They've created one of the most prestigious events in disc golf, second only (maybe) to Worlds. They've shown plenty of willingness to tinker with it---including one disastrous year---but it's hard to argue from the results that they've been wrong.

There are certainly detractors of the ropes course at Winthrop, but the event has lots of fans, too.

 

[tomsdiscs]

It has been discussed before, but after watching first round coverage from both Utah Open and Goat Hill, I just struggle to want to watch the next round...

My tolerance is slipping...

Both courses certainly have challenges and test the players game, but open fairways, roped OB, baskets on mounds and near sand traps are just boring to watch (in my opinion)...

The big tourneys thus far have been primarily ball golf courses...

Next week, another ball golf course in SF (though this one has a bit more character), and then Santa Cruz which includes a ball golf course...

I just don't like the trend...the majority of the first half of the season is this....

I know that it has grown the sport and is better for spectators but, boring...

Makes me long to see more golf at Idlewild, Brewster Ridge, Iron Hill, Maple Hill, etc.

Thank you for starting this thread, I completely agree with you, am rapidly losing interest in watching disc golf vids on ball golf courses, as soon as I started the GBO vids and saw that 1000 foot hole 1, I just stopped the video and moved on.

Not interested in watching players chuck discs on ball golf fairways, they need to have more varied challenges that make them prove they can play more molds, that is what ball golf does, you do not get away with just hitting driver and using putter.

 

[Twmccoy]

Did anyone actually ask the PLAYERS what courses they'd rather play? Does someone like Paul McBeth want to spend 18 holes throwing mids and putters on short, forested courses, or would he rather open it up and crank on a ball golf course?

People here are griping about what they want to watch. That isn't the main issue. The issue is what courses adequately challenge pro players. These events are being created to challenge players, not cater to the fickle whims of online viewers.

Disc golf is a varied game. Some courses are open, some are tight and wooded. If you don't like the layout on a given weekend (as a viewer), too bad. There's no need to come on here and gripe about it. Just wait until some event that is played at a course you like to tune in.

I for one find it interesting to watch long, open holes as well as precise, wooded holes. DG on ball golf courses is a thing, and I don't see it going away. Especially at the pro level where they want to create a layout with much longer holes than the local municipal DG course.

 

[Mspot]

I've heard that comment continually. My question is, "what evidence do you have to support it," other than your opinion? We just finished GBO and the final round had the highest online viewership for FPO live ever, and the highest online viewership for MPO live ever. SO apparently people who watch disc golf watched in greater abundance than they have in the past.

Thoughts?

Well, in terms of evidence I guess we could make a poll... I think we need to create a new thread for that and we probably should. But ultimately I am stating my opinion about what is better to watch. Not only is it better to watch , but it is also a better test of skill to decide who is a better golfer. To test the best players against each other they should be required to throw all the shots of the game. This includes big hyzers, low line drives, annys, mids, tight technical shots, and everything else in between. Obviously this is restricted by the terrain available but these golf courses are very poor at requiring players throw such a variety of shots that keep the game interesting for both players and viewers. This is really what makes paul Mcbeth the best golfer today. You see some players that do well on open courses and others that do well on woods courses but Mcbeth can do well on any style of course.

 

[scarpfish]

What is the reasoning for playing on these ball golf courses? I thought it was to allow more space for live spectators. Is that really worth playing on these boring courses? I would think online views would be more important.

Boring to whom? You and I aren't the ones paying the entry fees. Many of the "live spectators" are just participants who aren't currently playing. The online views to my knowledge, don't make the TD a dime or add to the player's purses.

Why do some of you hold to your role as a spectator as if its particularly important? Would you rather TD's put our top pros on your pedestrian (for them) 7000' home course so they can shoot -12 per round on it? Because in most markets where our current big events happen, that's about the only alternative to those boring OB roped ball golf courses. There are only so many Maple Hills in the world.

 

[Mspot]

Boring to whom? You and I aren't the ones paying the entry fees. Many of the "live spectators" are just participants who aren't currently playing. The online views to my knowledge, don't make the TD a dime or add to the player's purses.

Why do some of you hold to your role as a spectator as if its particularly important? Would you rather TD's put our top pros on your pedestrian (for them) 7000' home course so they can shoot -12 per round on it? Because in most markets where our current big events happen, that's about the only alternative to those boring OB roped ball golf courses. There are only so many Maple Hills in the world.

To answer your question: Boring to everyone. Players and spectators. Its cool to see people bomb on some open holes a few times, but it gets pretty stale after the 4th time and by the way spectators are important. Spectators are why people/companies are willing to pay money towards the tournament to advertise their product.
But that new course in Utah is pretty awesome. I see why they were awarded the Worlds in 2020.

 

[DavidSauls]

Did anyone actually ask the PLAYERS what courses they'd rather play? Does someone like Paul McBeth want to spend 18 holes throwing mids and putters on short, forested courses, or would he rather open it up and crank on a ball golf course?

People here are griping about what they want to watch. That isn't the main issue. The issue is what courses adequately challenge pro players. These events are being created to challenge players, not cater to the fickle whims of online viewers.

Disc golf is a varied game. Some courses are open, some are tight and wooded. If you don't like the layout on a given weekend (as a viewer), too bad. There's no need to come on here and gripe about it. Just wait until some event that is played at a course you like to tune in.

I for one find it interesting to watch long, open holes as well as precise, wooded holes. DG on ball golf courses is a thing, and I don't see it going away. Especially at the pro level where they want to create a layout with much longer holes than the local municipal DG course.

Some good points.

Particularly the merit to having different big events contested on different style courses. It might be more interesting to wonder how certain players will perform on courses that suit their style---or don't.

 

[DavidSauls]

To answer your question: Boring to everyone. Players and spectators. Its cool to see people bomb on some open holes a few times, but it gets pretty stale after the 4th time and by the way spectators are important. Spectators are why people/companies are willing to pay money towards the tournament to advertise their product.
But that new course in Utah is pretty awesome. I see why they were awarded the Worlds in 2020.

It's a supposition that they're "boring to everyone", not necessarily born out by viewership numbers.

I believe the course that has drawn the most in-person spectators is an open course with lots of ropes---Winthrop Gold as the UDGC.

I don't watch videos on either style courses, but have been in the USDGC gallery many times. It's not on a golf course, but it's open and contrived OB, so I assume it's similar. And while the distance is impressive, it's not just distance golf, it's placement golf. Where and how you land are very important, not just how far you throw. There is some shot-shaping involved but not a lot.

 

[_MTL_]

Gold courses allow any city town or club that has the money to run a world class event and no longer need world class courses to get away with it. This phenomenon isn't going away anytime soon.