BillyJackO's Form Adventure*

[sidewinder22]

Your left arm is out of control, thrashing around instead of swimming smoothly. Turn from the hips, not the left arm. Elbow hips forward, not around.

 

[billyjacko]

Still all sorts of wonk in my throw, but I'm feeling the hammer of the disc. I'm putting way less effort into my throws, and my biggest distance is when I'm waiting for the rear foot to hook up with my hand on the disc. Much more connected, and can't feel it if I'm out of balance. I can tell I can get more loaded in the backswing, but overall happy with how things are going. It's translated to standstills as well. I've been having problems with them recently, but with this small mental tweak I'm getting my putters back out 250'-275' on ropes without really trying. Sorry for the slow motion, got a new phone and am messing around with the settings.

 

[sidewinder22]

Looks pretty good. Just looks like you are planting into a little too wide stance(knees far apart)/a little late getting off rear foot.

 

[billyjacko]

looks like you are planting into a little too wide stance(knees far apart)/a little late getting off rear foot.

SSDD, you can see my head leading want to tip everything over the top, but my balance is better now so I'm able to get everything over the front foot. 1000 post later and it's finally starting to look proper, and it coincides with me really feeling the ground up chain/connection. It's nice how a lot of my work makes changes easier now. Good habits are turning into muscle memory, and I don't have to think nearly as much while going through the motions. Everything goes to crap if I stress and try to throw hard. Throwing off feel and trust makes hitting lines with distance a lot easier.

 

[UhhNegative]

Looks pretty good.

Billy has been waiting over 100 pages of this thread to hear you say those three words.

 

[billyjacko]

Door Frame Drills - in Soviet Russia Door Frame keeps turning/pulling you back into the plant with the head turning away last/ground up as butt/weight lead stride forward.

Your left arm is out of control, thrashing around instead of swimming smoothly. Turn from the hips, not the left arm. Elbow hips forward, not around.

I've finally figured out how important keeping the off side under control is. I played in a B-Tier (first round with Kevin McCoy PDGA #9453 which was really cool) and played pretty awful both rounds. Especially the second from the long where I felt myself trying to force power and couldn't get past 350'. Heat and fatigue likely played into it in part, but I took a couple days off throwing, and watched some pros from the Euro coverage. After watching this shot of Eagle, I immediately heard Seabas22 echoing in my head "Arm out of control, Arm out of control".


Went to the field with this in mind, and it immediately opened up my hips to get off the rear side and sling the disc. I can feel now how letting the left side go in the backswing locks it behind the disc and almost makes it impossible to be quick with the lower body. It all ties into staying upright, balanced, in control.

I still see I need to learn to get turned more back through the hips and not so wide in the plant, but I generally feel more controlled with easy distance. Here's a look, no disc no shoes, of what I'm getting at. It's funny because it doesn't look wildly different, but feels like a whole different throw.


Also wanted to include Ray Jay's clinic. Really good info about the hips in the first half. Same stuff we've heard before, but the way he says to keep the shoulders/hips/knees together is very simple and digestible.

 

[billyjacko]

I know this is going to sound stupid, but is the rear hip rotation like trying to hit a slap shot with your rear knee?

 

[billyjacko]

Something about the way I'm thinking of the hip rotation and loading of the disc has made it easier to manipulate my upper body and it finally feels normal to have my elbow up high. Swing plane immediately looks better. I threw further than I ever have today.

 

[sidewinder22]

Footwork looks good, but looks like you are hugging yourself a little bit.

 

[billyjacko]

So I know the parallels between the righty disc golf throw and lefty slap shot, but my question is more metaphorical. It falls in line with mantra "The throw is a lateral motion." Instead of thinking of shifting weight from one foot to another, I'm thinking almost like I have my hands on my femur, one hand on the hip, and one hand midway down the leg, and I'm trying to hit a puck straight into my plant knee toward the target. The wind up for the shot makes the load for 'the move' and the transition to hit the puck sends the weight forward. I hope this makes any sense at all.

 

[sidewinder22]

So I know the parallels between the righty disc golf throw and lefty slap shot, but my question is more metaphorical. It falls in line with mantra "The throw is a lateral motion." Instead of thinking of shifting weight from one foot to another, I'm thinking almost like I have my hands on my femur, one hand on the hip, and one hand midway down the leg, and I'm trying to hit a puck straight into my plant knee toward the target. The wind up for the shot makes the load for 'the move' and the transition to hit the puck sends the weight forward. I hope this makes any sense at all.

I think that works. I think more like hitting a puck with the back of my right shoulder to target.

 

[billyjacko]

With the adjustments of late, I've been able to slow down and get the same distances I've had with much less effort. I'm starting to feel the pump/late acceleration of the front hip clearing, but I see I'm late with it. Not sure if it's just starting the forward swing with the upper body too soon or what. I'll occasionally get the yips out to the right, and I think they're one in the same problem.

 

[UhhNegative]

Well, you are turning back earlier than you need to which can definitely mess with timing of the rotation and accuracy can suffer as well. I'd experiment with a later backswing. If it's maxed right at toe touch down you won't have to conciously think about staying closed for that long, you'll only be at the door frame for a split second before everything moves forward. Right now the disc starts moving forward before your toes hit. So it will be a faster, later backswing and if timed properly doesn't even give the chance to start opening too early.

 

[sidewinder22]

Yeah you aren't clearing your front hip, and your left side collapses around to left - yanks swing to right. It looks like you plant your front foot without all your weight suddenly shifting forward with it and bracing upright. You kind of slowly keep mushing into or around the front leg. Your left arm is late going forward into the plant, and/or your left arm is going left around outside your front foot instead of forward or right into/inside front foot.
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124523
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133543

 

[billyjacko]

Yeah you aren't clearing your front hip, and your left side collapses around to left - yanks swing to right. It looks like you plant your front foot without all your weight suddenly shifting forward with it and bracing upright. You kind of slowly keep mushing into or around the front leg. Your left arm is late going forward into the plant, and/or your left arm is going left around outside your front foot instead of forward or right into/inside front foot.

This is the thing I'm realizing is so fundamental that I'm still not getting. We talk about the counter/swim move, but I think I've figured out HOW that weight transfer is what leads to the counter. I was listening to Brian Earhart's podcast "The Buzzz", and he was talking about struggling AM1 players in the 400' range that can't figure out the mechanics. He suggested watching pros (duh) and seeing what their doing that your not doing and just trying to emulate it.

I've always realized I'm opening my hips and shoulders, and not getting that clapping behind your back look (unless I forced it to happen). I thought about what SW said about trying to hit his off shoulder at the target, and watching the pros it almost looks like their throwing a shoulder into a check. I was toying around with this, and suddenly I was finishing the throw feeling like the left side was "done" by time I'm fallowing through. Looking at the footage it seems the lead shoulder and hip are staying much more closed, the swing looks generally less rounded and more linear. I haven't taken this to the field, but it feels really easy.

 

[drk_evns]

I think maybe you're just "activating" your upper body too early. Your hips seem to engage after your arm does and then your elbow never gets a chance to shoot out in front of you before the hit.

Try this: When you get to your reach back, just never move your upper body. Leave it relaxed at the peak of the reach back, and then only try to drive your hips forward. You should feel it tug your upper body. At that point you just want to keep the integrity of the "frame." Meaning, you want to make sure your shoulder angle doesn't collapse, but also try not to tense anything up along the way. Then you'll see your elbow shoot out in front of you, and then extend as your shoulder angle collapses into the hit.

I got stuck at this stage too, and I still struggle with it. If I don't focus after a day of golfing, I start "activating" my arm. Then consistency/distance/everything goes out the window. I get sore. I get tired.

The "right" way doesn't feel powerful like it does when you're using your arm, but the discs go further and truer.

 

[sidewinder22]

I think you need a quicker shift of your lower body underneath the upper body between your feet with a narrower stride/stance. The drive from the rear instep should push your front heel into the ground quicker which should lag/tilt the shoulders back as your rear foot accelerates the pelvis rather than the shoulders, so the hips accelerate the torso/shoulders.

Work on this in slow/er motion and "standstill", so you have to maintain better balance and can accelerate faster going into the plant.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxnhM5amro0#t=1m15s

 

[slowplastic]

I think you need a quicker shift of your lower body underneath the upper body between your feet with a narrower stride/stance. The drive from the rear instep should push your front heel into the ground quicker which should lag/tilt the shoulders back as your rear foot accelerates the pelvis rather than the shoulders, so the hips accelerate the torso/shoulders.

Should this feel like we are trying to maintain the frame/posture and keep everything together, but like the hips have all the leverage?

Like going with too much lag or intentional lag feels like fake X-factor through the core and everything gets disconnected. And too soon with the shoulders feels like lots of core and upper body engagement but not the same hip pull?

 

[UhhNegative]

Should this feel like we are trying to maintain the frame/posture and keep everything together, but like the hips have all the leverage?

Like going with too much lag or intentional lag feels like fake X-factor through the core and everything gets disconnected. And too soon with the shoulders feels like lots of core and upper body engagement but not the same hip pull?

I think so.... I think I'm finally understanding how the upper body is supposed to feel (we'll see when my vids upload) but I'm driving with my torso and not using my hips.

HUB has said in one his later videos it's really just like he's holding that frame/posture in place. The lag will just happen due to momentum and having stretch in your muscles/tendons.

 

[sidewinder22]

Should this feel like we are trying to maintain the frame/posture and keep everything together, but like the hips have all the leverage?

Like going with too much lag or intentional lag feels like fake X-factor through the core and everything gets disconnected. And too soon with the shoulders feels like lots of core and upper body engagement but not the same hip pull?

mmm...see if I can make sense on this... I'd say the rear instep has all the leverage through the rear ankle/knee/hip/femur. "The move" bows/flexes your posture as you shift the downstairs so you get a catapult/spring effect as you brace for impact and contract your core.

I don't think you physically can be too soon with the shoulders rotationally. If you really try to reachback for the fake x-factor you are actually sending the hips rotationally forward so the hips are still indeed leading the shoulders but the hips are then done early or out of sequence before weightshift so it appears the shoulders are leading the hips and dragging them.

Or if you tip over into the plant the shoulders will appear to lead the hips while there isn't really much rotation happening then from the hips and/or shoulders.