braodcasting tournaments

[tomte]

I don't know if this is the right place and how many times this has been discussed before. But I have some questions:

I do like to watch discgolf. Unfortunately my work and children schedule doesn't leave a lot of time. Additionally I live in Sweden, so time differences make it difficult to watch especially live coverage.
I do appreciate all the effort people are making to provide us with good coverage.

I would like to know if all those regular camera crews (like, CCDG, smashboxx, , SpinTV, PHP, Jomez, sorry to all those I can't remember right now) do actually talk to each other and make plans how to cover as many cards and tournaments as possible?

I do ask this because:
- I would like to see some compensation system for your work
- I would like to have a corporate identity for disc golf broadcasts (and maybe even quality standards)
- I would like to watch more tournaments and also more chase card and women cards action
- I do sometimes get the impression that resources are not used to their full potential or that there is completely unnecessary competition or td restrictions
- I would like to have some (informal but professional) disc golf broadcasting club/union/association
- I would also like a rating for courses from a filming/commentating as well as viewing perspective

I think this is very important question, especially if we think about growing the sport. But mostly it is purely selfish because I want more quality broadcasts to watch when I come home from work and I don't want more mishaps like at the memorial this year...

 

[cheese dog]

Tomte that is where things are heading, Its no longer posting a round of disc on you tube anymore. It takes a ton of money and even more time to produce high quality videos. Are you willing to invest into a production company that will take disc golf coverage to the next level? It stinks waiting 4 days for tourney videos and live coverage for disc golf needs more development.

 

[Anon]

Seems like some 'cart before the horse' in your post.

I don't work in covering DG but I do work in event production. The amount of money just isn't there to provide the coverage we are used to seeing in other sports. Not even close.

Until that changes, expect to see much of the same.

 

[tomte]

Seems like some 'cart before the horse' in your post.

I don't work in covering DG but I do work in event production. The amount of money just isn't there to provide the coverage we are used to seeing in other sports. Not even close.

Until that changes, expect to see much of the same.

Actually no. I'm completely fine if it takes a couple of days to get things done and if they are not some crazy HD with insane frame rate and cameras for every pubic hair of the players...

What I am looking for is a more organized coverage of tournaments. How many times did we see Terry from smashboxx in the CCDG Masters Cup coverage filming the same stuff as they did?
I'm looking for a common look of all the videos posted. This makes it easier to watch, sets a standard and makes it possible to actually attract money from the outside. I think even camera placement should be something that should be discussed (documented). Even if it is just for the sake of gaining experience faster.

I want that those guys doing the work in their free time actually have the chance to get some kind of compensation. At least that the money available is shared in a fair way. And that they don't have to see themselves as competition. Or have to fight for the filming because a TD is friends with another film crew...

 

[TimSyl]

Actually no. I'm completely fine if it takes a couple of days to get things done and if they are not some crazy HD with insane frame rate and cameras for every pubic hair of the players...

What I am looking for is a more organized coverage of tournaments. How many times did we see Terry from smashboxx in the CCDG Masters Cup coverage filming the same stuff as they did?
I'm looking for a common look of all the videos posted. This makes it easier to watch, sets a standard and makes it possible to actually attract money from the outside. I think even camera placement should be something that should be discussed (documented). Even if it is just for the sake of gaining experience faster.

I want that those guys doing the work in their free time actually have the chance to get some kind of compensation. At least that the money available is shared in a fair way. And that they don't have to see themselves as competition. Or have to fight for the filming because a TD is friends with another film crew...

Yeah, three or four different crews following the "lead card" seems like overkill.

 

[Anon]

Actually no. I'm completely fine if it takes a couple of days to get things done and if they are not some crazy HD with insane frame rate and cameras for every pubic hair of the players...

What I am looking for is a more organized coverage of tournaments. How many times did we see Terry from smashboxx in the CCDG Masters Cup coverage filming the same stuff as they did?
I'm looking for a common look of all the videos posted. This makes it easier to watch, sets a standard and makes it possible to actually attract money from the outside. I think even camera placement should be something that should be discussed (documented). Even if it is just for the sake of gaining experience faster.

I want that those guys doing the work in their free time actually have the chance to get some kind of compensation. At least that the money available is shared in a fair way. And that they don't have to see themselves as competition. Or have to fight for the filming because a TD is friends with another film crew...

Lofty goals but I just don't think they are realistic at this point in the game.

Its always easy to sit at 20,000 feet and make proclamations on how things should go and what 'best practices' are. Its a little more difficult when you are in the trenches and actually factor in the reality of the situation and how we've gotten to where we currently are.

Egos are involved. Money (or lack of) is involved. 'Good-old-boys network' friendships are involved.

If the PDGA was making money hand over fist like the UFC and, most importantly, ruled the sport in a similar fashion... your changes would be a no-brainer and would obviously be a part of any sane media policy.

Unfortunately this game, the culture around it and the fashion in which the competitive side developed really doesn't allow for that kind of control.

 

[bradharris]

I'm looking for a common look of all the videos posted. This makes it easier to watch, sets a standard and makes it possible to actually attract money from the outside. I think even camera placement should be something that should be discussed (documented). Even if it is just for the sake of gaining experience faster.

I hate the idea of standardizing creativity. Everyone may have a slightly different take on it, that's not a bad thing.

Take a look at Major League Baseball. There are a number of different national outlets that broadcast games, each one does so a little differently. Fox is a "traditional" broadcast, ESPN adds a strikezone overlay, and MLB network uses statcast to show a ton of data about activity on the field that isn't necessarily relevant to the outcome of the game.

No one approach is the "right" one, they're just different takes on the same theme.

 

[corin_brown]

I'm looking for a common look of all the videos posted. This makes it easier to watch, sets a standard and makes it possible to actually attract money from the outside. I think even camera placement should be something that should be discussed (documented). Even if it is just for the sake of gaining experience faster.

I want that those guys doing the work in their free time actually have the chance to get some kind of compensation. At least that the money available is shared in a fair way. And that they don't have to see themselves as competition. Or have to fight for the filming because a TD is friends with another film crew...

Common standards would be nice. But there is now healthy competition between the various companies, which improves everyone's overall product. If the PDGA selects a single broadcaster for the rights to produce their tournaments, the other companies will fail and the incentive for the remaining single broadcasting company to improve the product and innovate would disappear.

If disc golf ever gets a large enough audience to attract established network broadcasters to bid for the rights to PDGA events, that would be the time to administer tight controls on the broadcast. Until then, however, disc golf cannot afford to tightly regulate the broadcast product. They simply don't have the manpower either. It's not like the PDGA has a dedicated broadcast division peopled by experienced network executives and marketing monsters. PDGA is a shoestring operation doing the absolute best with their budget. I think it's fine to allow only a single company to broadcast a particular event, to protect that company's investment. But narrowing the field and pulling in the reigns isn't the way to go now.

As for compensation, I think it would be great for disc golf broadcasters to be paid as much as NFL broadcasters or even as much as PBA broadcasters. Anything would be more than they make right now, which is essentially $0. But the audience just doesn't exist now to support anything close to an adequate level of compensation in disc golf.

For any successful broadcasting endeavor, first there must be an audience. Organizers can then leverage that audience by selling the rights to broadcast their events to companies like Smashboxx or ESPN who, in turn can then leveraged their access to that same audience by selling access to that audience to advertisers and sponsors for money that they can use to compensate themselves.

There is no money for compensation for anyone right now, because there is no advertisers or sponsors. And there are no advertisers or sponsors because there's no audience. Everyone in the pro disc golf game is stretched as thin as gossamer. Budgets are minuscule out of necessity.

When Terry Miller doesn't have to post on FB looking for lodging on the road b/c Smashboxx can't afford a hotel room, I'll know the disc golf audience is growing.

 

[JC17393]

When it comes to compensating the guys doing the work to record, edit and upload videos, what better way than through Patraeon? Terry's already on there. So is CCDG and Jomez. Pledge whatever you think you can afford per upload, and if enough of us do it, it could go a long way toward covering their expenses and maybe allowing them to expand what they do.

Maybe make the incentive to pledge be exclusive access to videos for the first few days. If you want to watch next day coverage of a tournament...pay up or wait a week to watch it for free. It separates the supporters from the whiners AND it gives these guys that much more motivation to turn things out quickly (not that they necessarily need it).

Just to take an example, Jomez's video for the final round of the DGWT at La Mirada is currently just over 22,000 views. If we account for half of those views being re-watches, that still leaves ~10,000 viewers since it went up. Let's say half of those pledge just 25 cents for the video on Patraeon, that's about $1250 right there. That should cover getting to the event and home again, and that's just one round's worth of video.

Smashboxx could maybe run the same way for live coverage. If they get 5000 viewers on a live feed, and half of them are paying a quarter per day, we're talking $1800 or so for a three day event. That should at least cover their wireless bill for the weekend.

All that said, the best way to support all of these guys is to watch their videos, live or edited. The bigger numbers they get, the easier it will be to convince more sponsors to throw them support. The "I can't sit through a four hour broadcast" thing is a lame excuse for not at least opening up the stream (or the archived footage) for five minutes to add another viewer to the count. Not watching does nothing to improve anything.

 

[Royalhghnss]

I would like to know if all those regular camera crews (like, CCDG, smashboxx, , SpinTV, PHP, Jomez, sorry to all those I can't remember right now) do actually talk to each other and make plans how to cover as many cards and tournaments as possible?

We definitely all talk. We have DG Media FB group, where we discuss things. We're all friendly with each other too. I would like to give Terry a shoutout for sharing Masters Cup MPO lead card final round with us. We arranged that we would post after him, but he didn't have to share at all. Class act right there.

A couple years ago it was the wild west, and anyone could film anything, but these days it's more locked down. There are pluses and minus to both, but you're more likely to get coverage of more cards if it's all locked down.

It's tough because we all want to film MPO lead card, and we're all trying to get a piece of the tiny $pie.

More and more you'll see different crews filming different cards, and this is all arranged by the TD or PDGA depending on the tourney. That said a lot of the time it doesn't make sense to go to a tourney if you're not gonna get lead card. Less money, and less fun for us, and to be honest money isn't the motivator for me or most of my crew. If it was we would have never started or stopped long ago.

As with a lot of things $ will help. Maybe. lol.

Seems like some 'cart before the horse' in your post.

I don't work in covering DG but I do work in event production. The amount of money just isn't there to provide the coverage we are used to seeing in other sports. Not even close.

Until that changes, expect to see much of the same.

This pretty much.

If you have any specific other questions I'll answer if I can.

 

[tomte]

We definitely all talk. We have DG Media FB group, where we discuss things. We're all friendly with each other too. I would like to give Terry a shoutout for sharing Masters Cup MPO lead card final round with us. We arranged that we would post after him, but he didn't have to share at all. Class act right there.

That's good to know that you talk and share.

It's tough because we all want to film MPO lead card, and we're all trying to get a piece of the tiny $pie.

Well, that is the point. You should all get the same amount of $pie for following the lead card or the chase card or the FPO instead of you all trying to get the MPO lead card. All the money all of you can make goes in one pot. You share what is in the pot regardless which card you follow. This could lead to more coverage available. Which in return can make more money. And this one pot will make it easier for sponsors to commit as well. And maybe even easier for viewers to pay per view.

It just would be nice to avoid fighting for "tv rights". At least as long as the $pie is still so small.

If you have any specific other questions I'll answer if I can.

Thank you! I just hope for a good discussion here with some positive results for all of us. Your work is very much appreciated.

 

[blackcatsmith]

A bit off present topic but.... I just want to acknowledge the incredible improvement of tourney coverage(s) by all those involved. Just in the last... say- four years it seems as if our lil' sport has grown up immensely, due to in no small part by the efforts put forth by those volunteering(at first anyway) their time and talents to cover the action for the masses. You guys are helping shape and sharpen Disc Golf's image and future. Along with being presumably fun(?) it's a pretty heady task I'd imagine- combining art, technical expertise, thankless production and even a little sport based politics at times. Kudos to you all, and as far as this person's opinion: you've done well. Also: As a supporter I find the YouTube "donate"(?) button the most user friendly. It allows for an immediate response(donation).

 

[Royal Hill]

In discussions like these - it's always best to think about and approach the topic from the creator side instead of the consumer side first. Consumer side second. This particular thread has done well on that point, readily understanding the effort and sacrifice and drive(s) of the content creators.

Foremost (likely) in any endeavor like this - a content creator typically values Control and Independence above all.
Usually, it's that control and independence that keeps this person from working $x/hour or $X/Year doing something else.

 

[JTacoma03]

We definitely all talk. We have DG Media FB group, where we discuss things. We're all friendly with each other too.

<INSERT Fight Club REFERENCE>

- I would like to see some compensation system for your work

No arguments there, only thing (reasoning will follow) about that is not all compensation systems are long-term sustainable. We have to make sure we set up a system that will be.

- I would like to have a corporate identity for disc golf broadcasts (and maybe even quality standards)

It's still a big risk to go full on LLC or Corp with a focus on DG media. Conditions are brewing up slowly, but not quite ripe as of 2016 IMO.

- I would like to watch more tournaments and also more chase card and women cards action

I think the NT's, majors, and the new tours (DGWT, DGPT) have pretty good coverage honestly. Competition levels lower than that don't draw views or $, so personally I would never prioritize "more tournaments, period." over "better coverage at top events" - I'm not saying you meant that - just stating my opinion

- I do sometimes get the impression that resources are not used to their full potential or that there is completely unnecessary competition or td restrictions

I can't personally fault the TD's for protecting their sponsors. The reason this has happened is because, like Ian said, when it was the Wild West - you'd get local businesses or even national disc golf industry brands throwing in money towards an event, but the bulk of the viewing is online (~30k views online vs 1000 spectators, hypothetically) and effectively they put in all the money for the 1k group and not the 30k. Whoever sponsored the production crew was getting in front of the eyeballs and sometimes even credited for "helping" the tournament instead of the rightful contributors.

Some camera guys definitely whine because they feel like they're getting boxed out, but in reality they were exploiting a loophole in the first place. Since then it's gotten better - production teams can leverage their viewer base with TD's to get paid directly, and then it's hand-in-hand with the companies sponsoring tournaments. It's a more forward-thinking model. Now - TD's need to in turn leverage media presence with their potential sponsors. They need to get into a habit of factoring in paying for media when they ask for money for their events...in the same way they factor costs of lunches, players packs, etc.

- I would like to have some (informal but professional) disc golf broadcasting club/union/association

At this point I think that would just be bureaucracy without much good to do. Eventually I'm sure it will be necessary, but if we're talking unions - I wouldn't pay union dues unless I benefit greatly. $ is slim already.

- I would also like a rating for courses from a filming/commentating as well as viewing perspective

[/quote]
Can you elaborate on this?


Thanks for the input - for the record I hope it comes across as a dialogue not an argument - message boards can mask tone. I'm always for growing the media intelligently in order to maximize our exposure.