Breaking Bad Timing Habit

[Melonhusk]

Curious, what seems off about my grip? I checked out a bunch of pros' grips and I'm not able to see with too much certainty what I'm doing wrong, but I tried a couple different things out.




Here's me going from my usual grip, to something I see a few pros doing where they hold it kind of like a steering wheel, holding more north on the disc than east - to the only other difference I can see with some pros, where they have their thumb pad flat on the disc and have more of their hand curled under the disc. This one is tough for me; I've got pretty long fingers and it doesn't really feel like I've got room underneath the disc to grip the rim when I do this. I tried it out briefly anyway, but after some pretty floppy releases I went with the middle one, the steering wheel grip. Feels ok! Not better, not worse. I think the rest of what's going wrong with my body might be getting in the way of judging results clearly. Anyway, does it look better to you?









Tried to calm down my left arm and keep it more inside, maybe a little better. Having trouble staying over my heel in the backswing while also having that "walking forward" feeling, seems like I'm still just falling into quad dominance. It really is like walking when I get it right but it's such a tricky balancing act for me right now.

 

[Melonhusk]

Better luck today I think! Legs are starting to get with the program a bit, and it took me a sec but the arrow drawings over these pictures

View attachment 319527

are starting to make sense.








Pretty nasty day to try to throw frisbees as you can see, so I don't want to draw too many conclusions off of results, but I was getting a lot of early releases and can't say I felt like I was throwing with a ton of oomph. In the side view it seems like I'm still not really getting the disc deep into my chest.

Thanks!

 

[sidewinder22]

Hard to see much in the grip video.

Do a Door Frame Drill where you get into Kyle's stacked posture position here. Shoulder is pulled back Underneath and behind his head and his arm unfolds going into the plant while disc remains relatively in place. You are leaning back and reaching back too early and too far behind your rear foot and your disc starts accelerating forward early before the plant.

 

[Melonhusk]

Been playing around with doorframe and Kyle Klein's swing and also just trying to feel out how to not be so chicken winged and quad dominant when I plant - which just seems to be really stubbornly ingrained no matter whatever else I try.
Definitely didn't solve anything today, but is this on the right track? I felt like I was starting to put the pieces together of how the door frame drill feeling informs the feeling of dropping into the plant, and how it might fix my posture issues - but the posture issues are definitely still there!

 

[sidewinder22]

1. Way too much stagger. This causes you to lean way over outside posture(head into wall Inside Swing Drill). Only need a couple inches of stagger in these drills. You need to line up the force pulling the front shoulder back to the rear foot. More compact stance creates better posture stacking, rotation, and ease of shifting from one foot balance to other foot balance.

2. Note how your pelvis tilts down instead of being pulled back up toward door frame while striding away from it. Fixing stagger should help and allow you step the rear foot closer to target/north creating more linear tension/force, instead of spreading out/dissipating the force east-west.

 

[Melonhusk]

Haven't been able to make it to my usual throwing/doorframe spot so I've just been messing with some ideas in my apartment. I tried to copy the little off arm backwards pump you see some people doing like GG, Klein, etc - only realizing afterwards I'm timing mine very differently than theirs. GG times his to the step off his front foot, Kyle and others time theirs to the last step off their back foot, and I'm timing mine to the cross behind step. Nevertheless, it kind of felt good? It made my hips swing around and towards the target forcefully, which felt like a good thing. I don't know, any merit to this? Only downside I can predict is maybe this closes my hips too early, making everything open too early as a result.

 

[Brychanus]

Less stagger is looking more promising to my eye there. Hopefully all consistent w/ SW's changes, but wanted to mention in case it helps:

1. I think you are allowing the rear knee to leak back too south/leaking the posture away back toward the camera and leaning back subtly (i.e., toward the camera) over it. It should be helping you push a bit more laterally directly toward the target deeper into the braced tilt. That's why PP's rear knee appears to drop abruptly in here whereas yours is slower coming thru/dragging a bit:





Keep using the doorframe. it's really hard to find this at first without the frame helping "box in" your posture for most people. I still usually go back to the door frame to see if I can find the tweaks SW wants me to make before I go back off the frame.

2. I know you're inside, but same as outside - from elbow to disc I think your swing isn't really "hammering out" into the release/you're sawing off the "tip of the whip" a bit. It should feel like it's centrifugally being "swung out" more into the release point following your posture/shoulder. Feels like:

 

[Melonhusk]

Less stagger is looking more promising to my eye there. Hopefully all consistent w/ SW's changes, but wanted to mention in case it helps:

1. I think you are allowing the rear knee to leak back too south/leaking the posture away back toward the camera and leaning back subtly (i.e., toward the camera) over it. It should be helping you push a bit more laterally directly toward the target deeper into the braced tilt. That's why PP's rear knee appears to drop abruptly in here whereas yours is slower coming thru/dragging a bit:

Thanks! That back knee movement is definitely confusing me right now - when I focus on bracing against my back leg laterally it tends to not get that brief turn towards the camera that most pros have, for instance this Doss clip:

1. Might be a grip issue rather than shoulder IR.

2. Your rear knee is moving to the east too late while going into the plant. Watch how Nate's rear knee moves back east much earlier and then moves west going into the plant.

but I know what you mean, where in my last post I'm not getting that knee drop as it de-weights. Not sure how to do both things at once! It seems like the movement of the back knee is tied to the backswing, that's the best I can tell.

2. I know you're inside, but same as outside - from elbow to disc I think your swing isn't really "hammering out" into the release/you're sawing off the "tip of the whip" a bit. It should feel like it's centrifugally being "swung out" more into the release point following your posture/shoulder. Feels like:

Yeah haha, has a little to do with learning the hard way about letting my hands fly free around kitchen furniture...but the hammer out part of my swing has looked way wrong to me for a long time.

 

[sidewinder22]

You are moving your left arm/leg together, instead of countering each other like walking/running/swimming.

 

[Brychanus]

Yeah haha, has a little to do with learning the hard way about letting my hands fly free around kitchen furniture...but the hammer out part of my swing has looked way wrong to me for a long time.

Yeah, even inside you want to be in spaces where can be free of mind and swing freely. I only swing at things I don't mind hitting or breaking now (or that can break me).

I have a quick & data-driven thought for ya.

When I used to do indoor swings, the hammer out or "slash through" would be the first thing to go when I started focusing on other things. After another month of poor Sidewinder helping me grind dingle arms, I'm convinced that it's maybe the most important thing to do consistently in non-throwing drills because it communicates the intent of what your body is doing even when you're not throwing etc. I think it's something I never quite fully reinforced and it took several hundred/thousand more reps just grinding it out this month before it felt totally natural (disc, hammer, etc) moving with the rest of my body. Then when he started adding other tweaks, it started to feel bizarre if the disc wasn't "hammering out" into the release/slash. So even when something else is wrong, I still am always making sure I'm "slashing thru" the pump/release point and it makes it easier to change other things more quickly. If for some reason I don't intend/feel the "slash through" I mentally count it as a failed swing right away, which is important to tell yourself from a learning perspective.

I like data. I tested it on a Techdisc my friend brought by yesterday and the difference between a slash thru intent in swing pump vs no intent before throwing is literally 8-10mph for me because it is correlated with all kinds of other little problems in the throw, especially more rounding and more posture collapse. It was super useful to see those data immediately after the change. It was also useful to see because I've been throwing very infrequently other than casual rounds all month.

I'm also suggesting that windmill dingle pump to you right now because it's really important to feel where that late acceleration happens relative to your body and gravity. Based on how you're moving overall I'm suspecting you kinda tend to lose that "gravity boost" effect. Even when it looks like I'm swinging pretty horizontal this month it still "feels" very vertical because an increasing amount of the swing acceleration comes from gravity. It was reassuring to verify with data that my fastest releases really were the most effortless feeling, and it was because SW has helped me get more and more access to swinging inside posture and aligning leverage points with gravity. You can work on the left arm/leg issue in that drill too while feeling gravity. I promise it can help (over a long period with many repetitions).

Hang in there

 

[Melonhusk]

Yeah, even inside you want to be in spaces where can be free of mind and swing freely. I only swing at things I don't mind hitting or breaking now (or that can break me).

I have a quick & data-driven thought for ya.

When I used to do indoor swings, the hammer out or "slash through" would be the first thing to go when I started focusing on other things. After another month of poor Sidewinder helping me grind dingle arms, I'm convinced that it's maybe the most important thing to do consistently in non-throwing drills because it communicates the intent of what your body is doing even when you're not throwing etc. I think it's something I never quite fully reinforced and it took several hundred/thousand more reps just grinding it out this month before it felt totally natural (disc, hammer, etc) moving with the rest of my body. Then when he started adding other tweaks, it started to feel bizarre if the disc wasn't "hammering out" into the release/slash. So even when something else is wrong, I still am always making sure I'm "slashing thru" the pump/release point and it makes it easier to change other things more quickly. If for some reason I don't intend/feel the "slash through" I mentally count it as a failed swing right away, which is important to tell yourself from a learning perspective.

I like data. I tested it on a Techdisc my friend brought by yesterday and the difference between a slash thru intent in swing pump vs no intent before throwing is literally 8-10mph for me because it is correlated with all kinds of other little problems in the throw, especially more rounding and more posture collapse. It was super useful to see those data immediately after the change. It was also useful to see because I've been throwing very infrequently other than casual rounds all month.

I'm also suggesting that windmill dingle pump to you right now because it's really important to feel where that late acceleration happens relative to your body and gravity. Based on how you're moving overall I'm suspecting you kinda tend to lose that "gravity boost" effect. Even when it looks like I'm swinging pretty horizontal this month it still "feels" very vertical because an increasing amount of the swing acceleration comes from gravity. It was reassuring to verify with data that my fastest releases really were the most effortless feeling, and it was because SW has helped me get more and more access to swinging inside posture and aligning leverage points with gravity. You can work on the left arm/leg issue in that drill too while feeling gravity. I promise it can help (over a long period with many repetitions).

Hang in there

All great points, definitely makes sense to not practice something different from the way you eventually intend to do it.



I did manage to get out today - mainly taking this gif



as inspiration, and yeah, that's gold right there. Within a couple tries I was definitely feeling the gravity boost and most importantly not having to worry about timing my front shoulder to my plant foot because if I just gave it the task of gravity pumping on my front foot, the timing took care of itself automatically. So that's good! I think I was having issues leaning over the plant or something, because I was throwing everything straight up and nose up - but it still felt better.

Maybe inching towards progress in other areas too. I'm noticing in my doorframe drills that I'll do it a bunch of times with less stagger, and then on the last rep where I decide to swing, suddenly I'll fall over to the left and create more stagger.





So then when I was working on throws I tried to retrain what registered to me as striding straight, because every attempt to stride "straight" led to my last step leaking teepad left.







Still looks very quad dominant, but maybe moving in the right direction?

 

[sidewinder22]

Need to keep your head up/posture stacked inside.

 

[Melonhusk]

Need to keep your head up/posture stacked inside.
View attachment 321215

Got it, thanks - I think I need to move myself left relative to the tree so it's more in door frame position, if I'm gonna keep trying to use trees. But I do see how I'm doing a similar thing in the throws, too. So is my head essentially causing my weight to leak over my toes?


Side note - is it just me, or is the way Kyle Klein moves down the teepad different than other people? I'm sure it's not unique, it reminds me a bit of Hammes, a bit of Gannon, and maybe even has some shades of Simon, but for instance here:



I'm looking at the way his weight pivots hard around his back hip as soon as he gets onto his back leg, and then he's striding super backwards and almost kind of duck-footed, so that he winds up planting nearly heel first. It obviously works great, and looks great, but as I look closer and realize how hard it is to replicate his motion even going super slow, it makes me wonder if he's moving his weight in a fundamentally different way than someone like say, Eagle or Calvin.

Does that make any sense? Am I seeing things?

 

[sidewinder22]

Kyle is ER hip dominant like Hammes and Climo and Simon. I don't think he's really moving different.

 

[sidewinder22]

Watch how Kyle redirects his backswing out wide/west, while your backswing keeps moving east further behind you.

 

[Melonhusk]

Ok so I went and revisited this



and after everything else that I've been working through since the last time I saw it, it's suddenly very clarifying - especially tying start the lawnmower in to the dingle arm. I get now how it's just the same as the doorframe drill, but for some reason it clicked differently and now I see how moving everything back linearly rather than thinking about rotating in the backswing at all gets me into better looking positions.

The bad news is, I've totally lost my dingle arm feel since the last time I went out. The timing of it was so intuitive the other day, and even though my posture was terrible and everything was nose up the discs were really jumping out of my hand. Now I just can't get that looseness back - maybe just a comfort thing with the backswing, who knows.

This was my best dingle I think:




And here's one with better weight shift I think




And here's a side view

 

[sidewinder22]

Launch yourself over the front leg into x-step.

 

[Melonhusk]

Been working on the above advice, definitely see now how key that is to moving my weight effectively. Don't have it perfect, and I definitely don't get into a posture quite as aggressive as JohnE but I think it's looking better.

Still missing something big in the swing! I see flashes of something good every once in a while, but things are just feeling disconnected right now, even as (I think) my weight shift and posture are improving little by little.







weird swing but better doorframe posture I think




the weight shift in this one felt nice - felt like I ran out of room to shift laterally and then everything got catapulted around




I think this was probably my best looking x step?

 

[Melonhusk]

Progress maybe on the gravity/dingle feeling. These don't look too pretty, but they came out much harder than everything else today and unlike every other wonky throw, suddenly didn't give me a wrenching feeling in my elbow.






I realized I had the wrong timing for the hammer out feeling - I had been hammering more down than out, making everything happen too early, which is probably why my elbow wasn't happy. For these throws I tried putting the effort into the upward portion of the swing, thinking relax relax relax through the downswing and then adding a little upward flick at the end. Still don't really have the hang of it, for one I have no idea where or on what angle my throws are going, but I feel like I'm onto something maybe?

 

[sidewinder22]

Your head is tilted/tipped over, so all your energy is going out your right ear as Mike Austin would say. Make your chin lead the nose going forward.