Compiling board posts into a coherent article

[racer93]

Maybe a video of someone doing something horribly (like myself, ahem) and point out what they're doing wrong vs someone with great form and explain and point out what they're doing right with backup and validation from all the advice you have. I think it would make a very powerful thing.

i've done that in the past, and it's actually not a very powerful thing. i'm not trying to be sarcastic when i say this, but people never garner what they should from these types of comparisons.

if you want to punch like bruce lee, you don't go rent a bunch of bruce lee movies and try to mimic his punches, nor would comparing your own punch to his on video be of much benefit. everyone knows what a punch looks like and can throw something resembling a punch. you would be better off buying bruce lee's book, opening your mind, and applying bruce lee's CONCEPTS to your punch and then training your ass off using said concepts. after months/years of hard work you will have a punch that is much more bruce lee-like than anything you'd come up with purely trying to imitate.

What I was trying to say is that it would be powerful for me. This is the way I (and some others) learn. Saying people NEVER garner what they should is a bit of an exaggeration. I also understand it's about concepts, but I also learn better with a teacher than by myself (which is why I'm here). I'm not trying to imitate anything. I'd like to emulate some players' forms (who wouldn't?), but to make it my own.

 

[scoopa]

This is such a daunting task. I will just ramble. Body positions have been gone over 1 million times. When I stopped thinking as much about body positions I got more of it. Once I felt snap I changed my body positions to generate more speed to give more snap. Like Blake has said you need to have some snap to get more snap(not an exact quote).

So, the goal is and always has been to feel it. This is how I really started feeling it:

Forget every notion you have of how much power or motion you think is required to throw a disk. The principles of physics are throwing the disc now, or if you think like me, magic :lol:

It is easier to feel the snap of a disc with anhyzer disc orientation and a short reachback. Your wrist wants to open this way and the disc wants to fall that way. Keep your arm loose. Turn your hips. Let your forearm swing out in anhyzer fashion. Try to keep your elbow at a roughly stationary position that will let your forearm perform this swing. It helps if your elbow is pointed out(right pec drill).

If your loose your wrist will open and the disc will rip out with surprisingly fast speed.

The speed of the motions don't have to be constant and really they shouldn't be. Fast bursts of speed at the right times is what gives power. Everywhere but these key "hit" points it is important to be fluid\smooth\loose.

Quick hips.
A quick elbow chop(or thrust) can sling out the forearm faster(this would be the last thing I'd worry about and isn't even needed for a ~300' throw with any fairway). This is very hard to time.

The magic(active wrist extension):

This motion(my wrist should open more for a throw):

http://www.youtube.com/user/MrScoopa#p/a/u/1/4tV3lvhTBEk

Don't forget the other things you have learned. Follow through, pull lines, clean pivot.

My take on things. Feel free to correct me. I'm still figuring things out

 

[racer93]

Well then you should go to the video critique section and look and read all the comments Blake has had on different throws. Because its already there. And with 99% certainty he has covered things you are not doing.

I was talking specifically about having it all in video form vs written form.

 

[terazen]

Would it make sense to put a link to Dan's working from the hit back video and Bradley's snap 2009 videos somewhere in the introduction? I was thinking maybe a disclaimer that if you can't throw an a,b or c disc "400/425/?" consistently then check out these other threads first and watch the videos.

I'm still only getting out to 400 once every 50 or so throws and it sounds like the article Blake is proposing would be intended for someone with better technique than I have at the moment.

 

[Blake_T1]

I was talking specifically about having it all in video form vs written form.

at some point you have to take personal responsibility. reading this reply made 1 minute after his post makes it sound like you didn't even read/consider what MrScoopa wrote, which is actually quite true info.

if you want a video w/ explanation's watch dan's video of my working from the hit back concept and relearn your throw from scratch. the video you crave is there, but you have to actually want it bad enough to do what is taught in the video. if you're unwilling to do that, the responsibility for that is on you.

What I was trying to say is that it would be powerful for me. This is the way I (and some others) learn. Saying people NEVER garner what they should is a bit of an exaggeration. I also understand it's about concepts, but I also learn better with a teacher than by myself (which is why I'm here). I'm not trying to imitate anything. I'd like to emulate some players' forms (who wouldn't?), but to make it my own.

body positions vs. timing. everyone finds timing in their own way and on their own terms. timing dominates everything else. when you have a feel for timing, you develop your own body positions to improve timing that won't look like anyone else's but they will share the same 7 common positions that all long throwing pros have. when you have timing and your own body positions you will then have all 13 things that long throwing pros have in common.

read this again and actually think about what it means:
if you want to punch like bruce lee, you don't go rent a bunch of bruce lee movies and try to mimic his punches, nor would comparing your own punch to his on video be of much benefit. everyone knows what a punch looks like and can throw something resembling a punch. you would be better off buying bruce lee's book, opening your mind, and applying bruce lee's CONCEPTS to your punch and then training your ass off using said concepts. after months/years of hard work you will have a punch that is much more bruce lee-like than anything you'd come up with purely trying to imitate.

open your mind. lose what you think you know and discover truth in your own way.

i've worked with over 1000 players in person, more like 5000 if you count phone/email/message board. i have a fairly good idea of what works for people and what they need to learn and what doesn't work. i also can spot the red flags of people i would deem uncoachable (no matter what you show them and how you try to help them it won't matter).

discraft: i will scan that over when i can.

 

[black udder]

Well then you should go to the video critique section and look and read all the comments Blake has had on different throws. Because its already there. And with 99% certainty he has covered things you are not doing.

I was talking specifically about having it all in video form vs written form.

Honestly, it's all been written and put on video here somewhere. The problem is, as others have said, it doesn't click the same way with the same info for everybody. I read and watched this information for ages before it started to click. No matter how it's explained or shown, if it's not clicking for you yet, it won't matter.

The concept of throwing a disc far isn't a complex one. It's surprisingly easy to understand, but it's an issue of not being able to see the forest for the trees. At some point, folks that don't understand it just go "aha!" and from then on, it's understanding timing and working in a specific direction with a specific goal vs just randomly throwing with no direction.

I watched so many videos but never saw the late pull until I understood it was a requirement and how it felt. Then I was able to see it. If you look at the different players, you realize that they all look quite different if you don't know what you're looking for. And by the time you know what you're looking for, you probably understand how to throw and would benefit more from practice time than watching video.

As for inexperienced players getting overwhelmed, yeah, we discuss the nuts and bolts of throwing here, so if you want to benefit, you need to be prepared to look through all the basics first instead of just diving into the deep end. Lots of people have learned a lot about throwing from taking their time and reading the info on this site. It's not for everybody, but help is here if you want it.

Subjects I know have been covered here in detail:

Foot pivot
Hip pivot
stopping elbow
wrist extension
Shoulder plane
Nose down

Most, if not all, have some sort of video in the thread and if you understand each segment, you should understand how to throw (understanding being only part of the accomplishment).

 

[Blake_T1]

I watched so many videos but never saw the late pull until I understood it was a requirement and how it felt. Then I was able to see it. If you look at the different players, you realize that they all look quite different if you don't know what you're looking for. And by the time you know what you're looking for, you probably understand how to throw and would benefit more from practice time than watching video.

well said here.

As for inexperienced players getting overwhelmed, yeah, we discuss the nuts and bolts of throwing here, so if you want to benefit, you need to be prepared to look through all the basics first instead of just diving into the deep end. Lots of people have learned a lot about throwing from taking their time and reading the info on this site. It's not for everybody, but help is here if you want it.

correct as well.

 

[MasterP97]

The disc golf wiki that was linked to by someone on the forums a few months back would probably be a good place to draw up the important information in one place before merging it all into an article.

I think that site is severely underused.

I agree, that would be an awesome site that any one of us can use to update stuff about disc golf.

 

[racer93]

at some point you have to take personal responsibility. reading this reply made 1 minute after his post makes it sound like you didn't even read/consider what MrScoopa wrote, which is actually quite true info.

open your mind. lose what you think you know and discover truth in your own way.

i have a fairly good idea of what works for people and what they need to learn and what doesn't work. i also can spot the red flags of people i would deem uncoachable (no matter what you show them and how you try to help them it won't matter).

Blake--I was just giving a suggestion, as that's kinda where this thread was going. Mr Scoopa's post wasn't up when I replied initially and had I seen it (which I didn't), I would have take it into consideration. I am VERY grateful for all the knowledge and help that has been provided by MrScoopa, you, Dan, and others. I do not doubt you at all, as you are probably the most knowledgable person in terms of the physics of throwing a disc. It was all about how some people learn. Maybe I didn't explain myself the best. I was just trying to help out.

Sorry for being one of the uncoachables...

 

[Blake_T1]

Blake--I was just giving a suggestion, as that's kinda where this thread was going. Mr Scoopa's post wasn't up when I replied initially and had I seen it (which I didn't), I would have take it into consideration. I am VERY grateful for all the knowledge and help that has been provided by MrScoopa, you, Dan, and others. I do not doubt you at all, as you are probably the most knowledgable person in terms of the physics of throwing a disc. It was all about how some people learn. Maybe I didn't explain myself the best. I was just trying to help out.

it's more that i was seeing if people were interested in doing some compiling for some articles and the same things from the same people that tells me they are still wanting to head down the wrong path.

e.g. if someone's problem is not keeping the disc close to their body during the pull you can show them a video of themselves swinging their arm out wide and a video of someone who does keep it tight during the throw. now what? it's still up to them to keep the disc close. you come up with drills for them to do, visualizations, analogies, etc. but it's still up to them to keep the disc close. 9 out of 10 times the problem is that they are fixed upon their throw. they try to make all the changes within a set of defined muscle memory and it doesn't happen. to make changes to your throw you have to "let go" of your current motion and change that motion.

this is the primary reason that i quit doing open lessons. standing in a field watching someone throw for 2 hours only interests me if they are able to make adjustments. if i give them the sole goal of: throw while keeping the disc close, don't worry about where it goes or how far it goes, just focus on keeping the disc close. 2/3rds of the time they just continue to throw with their old motion over and over again. it's fairly frustrating and ends up feeling like a waste of time.

when i get told my writing is too scientific or you need a video to understand it makes me feel like people aren't actually reading these posts. throwing a pen isn't scientific. telling someone to concentrate on throwing the disc rather than on specific body positions isn't scientific. talking about throwing a punch isn't scientific.

explaining the difference between the point of contact and drive is a bit scientific, but it's a concept; the background knowledge needed to breed the correct mindset.

90% of what people are seeking (with big snap) is feel-based. it's up to each individual to discover their feel and there's no perfect way to teach someone feel, they need to work through trial & error.

i think BU is most correct. the majority of people are trying to skip the middle. the throw has to have the basics before it's worth going after the advanced concepts.

 

[Blake_T1]

btw, it was Bradley Walker, USAnarchy, and peppermack seemed to have garnered the most benefit from my recent posts.

emiller and mrscoopa are definitely heading down the right track as well.

 

[TheLastBoyScout]

or to sum all of that up...

people just want the airplane to get them from point A to point B.

they dont care how or why the airplane works.

yet, they ask questions such as how can it fly faster? bigger engine? sleeker design?

but then they dont want to be bothered with the details, they just want to see results.




The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over, yet expecting different results.

By that definition, most disc golfers are insane. Its the sane few that realize and understand what is going on, and it seems to me that most of those people are the main posters/lurkers of this site.



Im willing to help out with whatever i can. However, im stuck until my replacement powersupply gets back from the manufacturer. Just PM me and let me know what i can do and i will be on it like a rat on a cheeto.

 

[Widdershins]

The greater need is for you to do videos. The easiest way to understand motion is to watch it...Imagine if I wanted to explain to someone how to tie a necktie. A hundred thousand words, carefully and skillfully chosen would be inferior to a simple video showing how to do it for most interested learners.

Mark, you must have worked on the videos you have done, with some basic scripts, a plot, etc.. Could you tell us more about the process? Putting together the script/plan, deciding how to film it, doing it, and then of course editing...this is not straightforward, and requires even more work, perhaps, than just the distillation into coherence as an article that Blake is proposing above. But I agree it is definitely worthwhile!

A script? A plan? :lol:

Maybe that is how it should be done. To date the process I have been involved in has been somewhat simpler. The camera sets up. The camera turns on. I say and do whatever comes to mind at the moment. Months or years later (if at all) it gets edited and published with little or no input from me.

I would love to do some serious work with a professional team and produce some quality work. Heck, I would love to be able to do retakes of stuff I was not happy with.

IMO a poor video might be more useful than a good article if at least it is done by someone who can demonstrate good throwing motion. If a picture is worth a thousand words then a video is many thousand pictures. More than that an article might be read by a few hundred readers. A video might be watched by a few hundred thousand watchers.

The current generation prefers videos to articles. I get contacted all the time by new players who threw their first golf disc, went home, searched Youtube and found me. Some of these folks do not yet own their own disc and they are sending me questions.

 

[scoopa]

All of that is on video already.

Hip power: Dan and Keltiks hip power videos.
A good pull through\follow through: Bradley's and Dan's videos.
Late acceleration: Dan's video.
Wrist Snap: Blake's "Distance Drilling: Increasing Your Distance From the Ground Up" article w\ video..

What is trying to be captured here is the timing.

To put it this way. I had a moment of stiffness and stage fright. My timing was gone. 10 throws or so I had 300' max with big d drivers. For 18 consecutive holes before I was doing that D' with a Buzzz. Now, after that 10 throw rut my throws are 100' longer. The only difference was the timing. I was loose, fluid, and just let the things happen.

You can't video timing. It will look like any other throw unless you know what to look for. A person that grunts and throws with all their strength makes for an impressive looking *possible* throw. Then you see it plop down at 250'. Hehe that was me a about a year ago.

Once you feel snap you can build on it. Once you feel snap you can see the timing in others despite body positions.

 

[black udder]

What folks having problems understanding this need is some sort of interactivity. Videos only help if you understand what it is you're looking at (when you're talking about throwing 350'+).

People need to be able to see a person do it, then ask their own individual questions - the things that are confounding them. Unfortunately, I don't know that we're at that point yet with video technology (that it's easy and readily available for the masses).

There are so many elements that play a part in a good, long throw, where do you start? What assumptions do you make about the student?

I still believe Dan's original working from the hit backwards is a the best video. But what really helps is to go back through these threads and understand some specific point. Say, stopping the elbow. Read up on that and then watch Dan throwing. You'll see where his elbow stops and his forearm comes out. You can compare that with the many other videos on the site to see the variety of body positions and disc positions. You can take hip rotation - watch Dan's video on that, then read the thread, then watch Dan's throwing from the hit backwards and see how he incorporates it. See how others do.

All the information is here and with video examples. Looking at the Technique sticky has a ton of links, some including video, of most of these subjects.

@drledford93 - what, specifically, are you looking for help with? A specific portion of the throw? The whole thing? Or were you just thinking about others looking for answers?

 

[scoopa]

The thing with drledford93 was a misunderstanding. I've talked with him and he didn't originally get what the gist of this thread was about. The subtleties of the throw. Water under the bridge.

The hit back method is in my opinion the best way to learn to throw far. People just give up too soon. Having said that there are prerequisites to even the hit back method. I was a total bone head when it came to the concepts of hips and weight forward. It just wouldn't click as easily.

 

[Blake_T1]

What is trying to be captured here is the timing.

Once you feel snap you can build on it. Once you feel snap you can see the timing in others despite body positions.

these two sentences are completely true.

it's all about the speed out after the disc reaches the right edge of the body.

JHern:

i had already scripted videos in the past and yes, videos are fine for teaching basics and fundamentals. as i've said, right now i'm concentrating more on finding effective methods for teaching the most difficult subjects as all of the videos on the basics (and even some more advanced things) already exist.

------------------------------------------------------

people usually fail at the difficult concepts because they lack the diligence to see them through all the way. it's like they expect the timing to magically appear one day while they are playing a round.

it took dan like 4000 practice throws in the span of 10 days with the SOLE focus of those throws being trying to "hit it," and that was after i had imparted every bit of knowledge i had on the subject to him. he wasn't playing rounds, these were going to a field and throwing 4000+ times simply trying to learn to snap a disc hard. it paid off.

it took me around 5500-6000 practice throws to learn to hit it across ~25 days but i had a lot less knowledge/resources available to me at that time.

for people to put this into perspective, 4000 field throws is more than most people do in an entire year, for some, it's more like what they would do in 5 years. 4000 practice field throws in 10 days = 400 practice throws a day. if i remember what he told me correctly, the first few days he did over 300 right pec drill throws per day.

i wasn't holding his hand during any of it. he did all of those throws on his own and then called me up and was like "i'm throwing 500' now, can you teach me to throw 200'? i'm overthrowing everything by a mile."

i'm very confident that after 4000 practice field throws, most people will "get" the majority of these concepts. not everyone will be throwing 500', but the chances of reaching that increase significantly the more you practice. with some of the things i have written lately, i wouldn't doubt if it was possible in 2000 practice field throws

my advice to players looking to up their game as quickly as possible is to do 4-8 hours of field work for every round they play. i would also wager that maybe 1 in 50 players is willing to do this.

when people give up on the right pec drill it's because they threw 25 throws and sucked at it and quit. for those who stick with it there's usually a noticeable breakthrough at around the 200 throw mark.

what i've learned over the years is that most requests for videos come from people who aren't willing to put the serious work in. they quit after 25 poor right pec throws and reverted back to their old form. they quit after 25 working from the hit back throws and reverted back to their old form. they gave up on throwing the pen before they quit grip-locking the pen. they learned to snap a towel but never transferred any of that to their disc golf throw.

i'm searching for the magical technique to teach, to make snap attainable in 200 practice throws, but unless people get out in the field and wear their fingers to the bone throwing with specifics in mind, make their break-through, and then give feedback upon what their magic trick was, it's difficult to do this.

all in all, this thread sorta conveys why i get burned out a bit with disc golf.

 

[Lithicon]

90% of what people are seeking (with big snap) is feel-based. it's up to each individual to discover their feel and there's no perfect way to teach someone feel, they need to work through trial & error.

I've done this lately, and you can't teach feel. Like you said they have to get that just slightest hint of it, then when they get a little bit of they build on it from there. And, you've helped me with that. Like you've said the video's are GREAT to get some basics down, to get a general idea. But, the main concepts are covered all around with 2 seconds spent searching for it. The hard to get details, you can't teach with video, which is what you're trying to say.

i think BU is most correct. the majority of people are trying to skip the middle. the throw has to have the basics before it's worth going after the advanced concepts.

You pointed this out to me also in a way that I was focusing on stuff that just didn't matter for what I was trying to do. Once you pointed it out to me, I then started to figure it out. Then after hours of practice in a field, I got started getting the feel for it. More on this after the next quote!

i'm searching for the magical technique to teach, to make snap attainable in 200 practice throws, but unless people get out in the field and wear their fingers to the bone throwing with specifics in mind, make their break-through, and then give feedback upon what their magic trick was, it's difficult to do this.

As I said, once I got a feel for it, even after reading all this it makes sense, but you don't know how it "FEELS." Practice is the only way to make that happen. No amount of video or reading can get that. But, I got a good feel for what I was doing, made some adjustments, and after telling you my incraeses, then you would give me another little bit to focus on. Done that, and got the feel for it after more hours of practice.

all in all, this thread sorta conveys why i get burned out a bit with disc golf.

I've noticed this quite a bit with your absence for a while, and with discussions we've had, it's like everything. You don't mind teaching what you know, but you're like any teacher, you don't want to go over and over redundant small issues that aren't the real keys to the largest picture. But, you can't seem to get that point across, and you've said that many times in this thread.

I wish you the best of luck in this endeavor to make this happen, but this is going to get rough. :?

 

[bcsst26]

I have to agree that videos aren't the way to go. I have watched video after video with not getting it. I think I can finally say that last night I got it. After a long time and working on the right pec drill/throwing from a standstill etc last night it finally all clicked. I went out to the field and started with the right pec drill. I tried it a bunch and got decent distance but something wasn't there. So I worked on throwing the disc like a stick. There it was. It finally clicked. I tried this in the past but with no luck. For some reason last night it finally clicked. I spent the rest of the time throwing from the right pec keeping this feeling. I have more work to do but I am pretty sure that I am starting to get it. The feel that was there brings all Blakes recent stuff together with Bradley's and MB's. My main problem in the past was I would work on the right pec drill or a throw and from there I always read to accelerate. And I did. But I was doing it without a purpose. I was to wild and tried to go to fast to soon. The throwing a stick idea gave me something to concentrate on and now I can actually say that when I am throwing I am trying to throw the disc and just not my arm. If I get some free time here I will try to write something up even though I am early on in a break through but it might be hard with two young daughters sharing my time. Thanks for some great posts.

 

[racer93]

people usually fail at the difficult concepts because they lack the diligence to see them through all the way. it's like they expect the timing to magically appear one day while they are playing a round.

it took dan like 4000 practice throws in the span of 10 days with the SOLE focus of those throws being trying to "hit it," and that was after i had imparted every bit of knowledge i had on the subject to him. he wasn't playing rounds, these were going to a field and throwing 4000+ times simply trying to learn to snap a disc hard. it paid off.

it took me around 5500-6000 practice throws to learn to hit it across ~25 days but i had a lot less knowledge/resources available to me at that time.

for people to put this into perspective, 4000 field throws is more than most people do in an entire year, for some, it's more like what they would do in 5 years. 4000 practice field throws in 10 days = 400 practice throws a day. if i remember what he told me correctly, the first few days he did over 300 right pec drill throws per day.

i wasn't holding his hand during any of it. he did all of those throws on his own and then called me up and was like "i'm throwing 500' now, can you teach me to throw 200'? i'm overthrowing everything by a mile."

i'm very confident that after 4000 practice field throws, most people will "get" the majority of these concepts. not everyone will be throwing 500', but the chances of reaching that increase significantly the more you practice. with some of the things i have written lately, i wouldn't doubt if it was possible in 2000 practice field throws

my advice to players looking to up their game as quickly as possible is to do 4-8 hours of field work for every round they play. i would also wager that maybe 1 in 50 players is willing to do this.

when people give up on the right pec drill it's because they threw 25 throws and sucked at it and quit. for those who stick with it there's usually a noticeable breakthrough at around the 200 throw mark.

what i've learned over the years is that most requests for videos come from people who aren't willing to put the serious work in. they quit after 25 poor right pec throws and reverted back to their old form. they quit after 25 working from the hit back throws and reverted back to their old form. they gave up on throwing the pen before they quit grip-locking the pen. they learned to snap a towel but never transferred any of that to their disc golf throw.

i'm searching for the magical technique to teach, to make snap attainable in 200 practice throws, but unless people get out in the field and wear their fingers to the bone throwing with specifics in mind, make their break-through, and then give feedback upon what their magic trick was, it's difficult to do this.

all in all, this thread sorta conveys why i get burned out a bit with disc golf.

I think if you stickied this and made this MANDATORY reading for anyone wishing to ask questions, it will help. I had an inkling that this is what you and Dan did, but not the full picture. I CANNOT play rounds very often (less than 1/week) for medical reasons. However, I do try and go out and practice almost every day, roughly 200 throws/day. This is all my body can handle. And I give it all it can handle.

I really think that if you show in a very up front way that you have to PRACTICE and not play rounds, it will sink in for most people. Believe it or not, I do understand this. It took watching Bradley's snap videos a 3rd time last night to finally get what I wasn't doing (the hammer throw). My flat throws with a TB instantly went to 425'. That's what it took for me. I'm nowhere near finished, but it's a great increase for now.

Blake--we turn to you because you know the most about this and can explain it in a way that is understanable by most. Just realize that while it has to be incredibly difficult to answer stuff a lot, it is a huge sign of respect from all of us. We turn to you to find answers when what we're trying and doing after reading and studying isn't working.