JR
* Ace Member *
Thanks for the vote of confidence. I'll write small segments as I can.
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Compiling board posts into a coherent article
- Thread starter Blake_T1
- Start date
racer93
Double Eagle Member
>silently< +1 8)MrScoopa said:Looking forward to it. I'm sure the lurkers are too
masterbeato
Double Eagle Member
- Joined
- Jun 14, 2007
- Messages
- 1,922
IMHO, do not watch videos to learn this!
when it comes to body, you learn by doing. when i was learning this, i did not watch a video, when i did i saw nothing even when Blake was sitting right there trying to get me to see it. after i learned how to hit it, i watched the videos and THEN i could see it very clearly its like "oh yeah!".
it is not like one day overnight taking a slew of information and trying it in the field and all of a sudden boom "sweet!", no it was what Blake posted, 400+ throws per day, 4000+ in 10 days of doing one particular thing, focusing only on the "hit", and nothing more.
I was not preoccupied with putting, touch, going to the course to see if it happens, i was out in that field every single day. i will tell you if you want to throw far, you have to want it, and you have to want it bad, and the only way you are going to get it is spending countless hours throwing differently then how you are now.
you absolutely have to throw differently, you cannot throw the same at all, if you do, then obviously you will be at plateaus for the rest of your life. i can not stress enough how much work and exausting hours both physically and mentally you have to put in. half of those 400+ throws a day were from standstills of right pec throws, very boring but necessary. but my god you finally hit it, even if its just once, you wont even look back youll be like "i want more" and if you want more your going to be more willing to work harder for it, because you know what it feels like and your gonna love it. before you dont know, so i dont put it past anyone to not want it bad enough to not give up on it right away.
so make your decision if you want to commit to it right now, or if the tiresome hours scare you.
when it comes to body, you learn by doing. when i was learning this, i did not watch a video, when i did i saw nothing even when Blake was sitting right there trying to get me to see it. after i learned how to hit it, i watched the videos and THEN i could see it very clearly its like "oh yeah!".
it is not like one day overnight taking a slew of information and trying it in the field and all of a sudden boom "sweet!", no it was what Blake posted, 400+ throws per day, 4000+ in 10 days of doing one particular thing, focusing only on the "hit", and nothing more.
I was not preoccupied with putting, touch, going to the course to see if it happens, i was out in that field every single day. i will tell you if you want to throw far, you have to want it, and you have to want it bad, and the only way you are going to get it is spending countless hours throwing differently then how you are now.
you absolutely have to throw differently, you cannot throw the same at all, if you do, then obviously you will be at plateaus for the rest of your life. i can not stress enough how much work and exausting hours both physically and mentally you have to put in. half of those 400+ throws a day were from standstills of right pec throws, very boring but necessary. but my god you finally hit it, even if its just once, you wont even look back youll be like "i want more" and if you want more your going to be more willing to work harder for it, because you know what it feels like and your gonna love it. before you dont know, so i dont put it past anyone to not want it bad enough to not give up on it right away.
so make your decision if you want to commit to it right now, or if the tiresome hours scare you.
racer93
Double Eagle Member
masterbeato said:
Couldn't agree more with you, Dan. I could see a little from watching and reading, but once I did it (even if it was less than half hitting it) I can see more.
Once I got one out to 425', it was like my first hit of crack. Hooked. I've been playing for 10 years and I haven't been this excited in a long time. (Just ask my wife!) As you could tell from my incessant questioning of you, Blake and others, I am passionate about this and want desperately to "throw faaaar" like Kallstrom. When I set my mind to something, I get it. It might take a while, but...
The tireless hours only scares my fragile body! (My medical crud.)
FYI--I threw farther today than I have ever thrown before on my home course! I really appreciate all the help your vid provided (even though it's Blake's info, you did the video).
masterbeato
Double Eagle Member
- Joined
- Jun 14, 2007
- Messages
- 1,922
thanks a lot patdabunny!
i did the video because of request from some people on this board. i tried to explain it in a way of simplifying Blake's theories. i did OK at best i feel with it and everyone seemed to like it a lot, got a lot of good reviews on it which is why i am making another video since i know more now then i did then, and could bring a whole other bag of interpretations of my own to the table now, and i would like to share it.
i am glad to hear of your successes, and i wish you all the luck in the world. even though i am a firm believer of feeling it yourself when it comes to the throw, i also believe that having a video accurately describing the fundamentals that tell you how to kill it, also helps in a way because maybe it will click for some others, which is why i am making another video. i know it is really dependent upon you doing it yourself, because in my teaching experiences i try to show them in person how to come in tight for example, and then some people do not really do it even though i feel like they should, but this video is just to show another aspect of it since i cannot be there for most of you to actively show you how it is done, but once again, it is fully dependent on "you" to do it.
i can tell you, and i can show you how close to come in to your body, show you all of the positions required, and tell you all about timing in the most accurate description possible, but does that magically make you do it on your own? probably not, but i am trying to think of a video that does it best, so you guys have some sort of material to work with since i know some people do not get very much from just pure reading.
i did the video because of request from some people on this board. i tried to explain it in a way of simplifying Blake's theories. i did OK at best i feel with it and everyone seemed to like it a lot, got a lot of good reviews on it which is why i am making another video since i know more now then i did then, and could bring a whole other bag of interpretations of my own to the table now, and i would like to share it.
i am glad to hear of your successes, and i wish you all the luck in the world. even though i am a firm believer of feeling it yourself when it comes to the throw, i also believe that having a video accurately describing the fundamentals that tell you how to kill it, also helps in a way because maybe it will click for some others, which is why i am making another video. i know it is really dependent upon you doing it yourself, because in my teaching experiences i try to show them in person how to come in tight for example, and then some people do not really do it even though i feel like they should, but this video is just to show another aspect of it since i cannot be there for most of you to actively show you how it is done, but once again, it is fully dependent on "you" to do it.
i can tell you, and i can show you how close to come in to your body, show you all of the positions required, and tell you all about timing in the most accurate description possible, but does that magically make you do it on your own? probably not, but i am trying to think of a video that does it best, so you guys have some sort of material to work with since i know some people do not get very much from just pure reading.
terazen
Bogey Member
MB, Could whoever uploads the new video put a link to this site in the description or something? For me the video was what showed me that there is actually technique that can be learned (not just some people got it and some people don't) so maybe a link to a good article for anyone who wants more information?
JR
* Ace Member *
Should we wait until MB releases his video or just go ahead anyway?
In the meanwhile:
Time line to snap generation and prior:
1. Shot planning and disc selection.
2. X or shuffle step with or without run up or standing still.
3. Right hand backhand throw the third step of the x steps with the right foot plants.
4. Only now does the arm start moving and intentionally slowly trying to maintain a fairly straight line from back to front. How perfect the straightness is depends on the technique one uses. All the usually used efficient techniques share one component that is the disc moves in a straight line from the elbow straightening forward except the forearm straightening will shift the disc to the left during the elbow straightening. The end does move in a straight line and that's when it counts.
5.Most of the movement of the disc and arm forward comes from a slow mellow muscled motion of the legs reducing in speed to where the chest and hips faces a quarter turn left of the target.
6. Once the shoulders, chest and the hips reach 90 degrees left of the target the arm is moved with slowish speed and with as loose muscles as possible until the front of the disc is as close to the target as the right side. The optimum position varies depending on arm speed of the individual it also varies during career. You need to find out the best place now for yourself.
7. If the arm pull height is lower than the arm pit try to move a part of the disc under the shoulder for maximum elbow bend angle before straightening it. This requires a reach back position that is closer to the left side of the tee pad than with a straight arm pull. The elbow is very quickly moved as far as it will go toward the target minus an inch to avoid muscle damage in the shoulder area from full motion range, abrupt stop and locking up the elbow.
8. The legs and minimal amount of time later the hips use a lot of power to explosively quickly turn the torso toward the target while the elbow starts to straighten at first quickly.
9. Then as fast as you can once the knuckles are 8-10" short of the arm being straightened toward the target. Beginning with the elbow being stopped almost in place to move the previously generated motion into straightening the forearm. Here the muscles will tension up a lot and the wrist bending back from the acceleration should be fought against to get a great spring like loading of the wrist area tendons. As long as the wrist doesn't become totally motionless which few can achieve at pro power level. You don't want to squeeze the muscles to bulge like lifting weights but move the forearm forward as quickly as you can. Think moving fast with loose muscles and let nature take it's course. The muscles tense up automatically so you don't need to add muscle effort in any other way than trying to move the forearm fast and slightly tensioning the so far totally loose grip on the disc. Or the disc will slip early once you gain enough acceleration. That comes from muscle power and quickness training. Field practice will give speed in time and lifting weights and other gym work gives the power to move and accelerate fast.
10. The magic part. Once the arm is almost straight the actively farther to the right than chest turning shoulders add to the work of the legs and hips. If you managed to keep the elbow almost in place the body starts to pull the arm backward while the arm starts to move to the right and back away from the target from the shoulder socket. The spring like tension built up in the wrist area starts to unload by moving the wrist forward toward hand shaking position. This is incidental motion from the arm changing the motion direction. When you add fuel to the fire by consciously turning the wrist right of the hand shaking position the disc accelerates forward abruptly.
11. Magic part deux. Just like elbow stopping transfers created energy to straightening the elbow forward faster than possible with arm muscles alone stopping the wrist with as hard braking as you can will add another leap in acceleration to the disc. This time the spin on the disc increases dramatically as well. Pro players have been measured to increase spin rate by 40 % from wrist straightening and the disc pivoting between the now hard clenching thumb and the index finger. Think of it like this: When the fingers are stationary the energy can only move to the disc. This maximizes spin and sacrifices speed and hurts you in the short run. Safe maximized spin/speed combination comes from an abrupt retarding, not full stopping, of the wrist opening 10-20 degrees to the right of hand shaking position for hyper spin and accelerating the arm to move faster after the disc separation from fingers allowing a full follow through. Regular snap stops the wrist at hand shaking position. When you retard the wrist motion to the right the wrist should be pushed down or be already down so that the disc is inline but lower than the line between the wrist and the elbow. This helps in keeping the nose of the disc down. It isn't easy to keep on holding on to the disc so that it will not slip out prior to the disc pivoting between the index finger and the thumb. Many don't have enough finger strength to accomplish that without training. Squeezing almost as hard with the middle finger as the index finger helps. When the wrist slows down the disc leaves the vicinity of the palm during the pivot. The disc moves with so much force that the index finger can't stay crooked and if you pinch hard enough the disc will pull the index finger straight pointed at the target. By this time the disc has pivoted so that only the finger print of the index finger and the thumb touch the disc at the rear of the disc. That, a straighter flight and added distance are indicators of a great snap. If you manage to turn the shoulders so that the arm is straight as the disc rips out and the shoulder line points to 11.30-11.45 o'clock with the target being at 12 o'clock you can't achieve more from power from body positions. After that only more acceleration and stronger retarding of the elbow and wrist during proper times adds more power along with a more powerful run up.
Comments, corrections, missing bits, anything? Is training advice and feel description of different muscles in different parts of the throw necessary in your opinions? How about a description of what body parts to move to where at different stages of the throw?
In the meanwhile:
Time line to snap generation and prior:
1. Shot planning and disc selection.
2. X or shuffle step with or without run up or standing still.
3. Right hand backhand throw the third step of the x steps with the right foot plants.
4. Only now does the arm start moving and intentionally slowly trying to maintain a fairly straight line from back to front. How perfect the straightness is depends on the technique one uses. All the usually used efficient techniques share one component that is the disc moves in a straight line from the elbow straightening forward except the forearm straightening will shift the disc to the left during the elbow straightening. The end does move in a straight line and that's when it counts.
5.Most of the movement of the disc and arm forward comes from a slow mellow muscled motion of the legs reducing in speed to where the chest and hips faces a quarter turn left of the target.
6. Once the shoulders, chest and the hips reach 90 degrees left of the target the arm is moved with slowish speed and with as loose muscles as possible until the front of the disc is as close to the target as the right side. The optimum position varies depending on arm speed of the individual it also varies during career. You need to find out the best place now for yourself.
7. If the arm pull height is lower than the arm pit try to move a part of the disc under the shoulder for maximum elbow bend angle before straightening it. This requires a reach back position that is closer to the left side of the tee pad than with a straight arm pull. The elbow is very quickly moved as far as it will go toward the target minus an inch to avoid muscle damage in the shoulder area from full motion range, abrupt stop and locking up the elbow.
8. The legs and minimal amount of time later the hips use a lot of power to explosively quickly turn the torso toward the target while the elbow starts to straighten at first quickly.
9. Then as fast as you can once the knuckles are 8-10" short of the arm being straightened toward the target. Beginning with the elbow being stopped almost in place to move the previously generated motion into straightening the forearm. Here the muscles will tension up a lot and the wrist bending back from the acceleration should be fought against to get a great spring like loading of the wrist area tendons. As long as the wrist doesn't become totally motionless which few can achieve at pro power level. You don't want to squeeze the muscles to bulge like lifting weights but move the forearm forward as quickly as you can. Think moving fast with loose muscles and let nature take it's course. The muscles tense up automatically so you don't need to add muscle effort in any other way than trying to move the forearm fast and slightly tensioning the so far totally loose grip on the disc. Or the disc will slip early once you gain enough acceleration. That comes from muscle power and quickness training. Field practice will give speed in time and lifting weights and other gym work gives the power to move and accelerate fast.
10. The magic part. Once the arm is almost straight the actively farther to the right than chest turning shoulders add to the work of the legs and hips. If you managed to keep the elbow almost in place the body starts to pull the arm backward while the arm starts to move to the right and back away from the target from the shoulder socket. The spring like tension built up in the wrist area starts to unload by moving the wrist forward toward hand shaking position. This is incidental motion from the arm changing the motion direction. When you add fuel to the fire by consciously turning the wrist right of the hand shaking position the disc accelerates forward abruptly.
11. Magic part deux. Just like elbow stopping transfers created energy to straightening the elbow forward faster than possible with arm muscles alone stopping the wrist with as hard braking as you can will add another leap in acceleration to the disc. This time the spin on the disc increases dramatically as well. Pro players have been measured to increase spin rate by 40 % from wrist straightening and the disc pivoting between the now hard clenching thumb and the index finger. Think of it like this: When the fingers are stationary the energy can only move to the disc. This maximizes spin and sacrifices speed and hurts you in the short run. Safe maximized spin/speed combination comes from an abrupt retarding, not full stopping, of the wrist opening 10-20 degrees to the right of hand shaking position for hyper spin and accelerating the arm to move faster after the disc separation from fingers allowing a full follow through. Regular snap stops the wrist at hand shaking position. When you retard the wrist motion to the right the wrist should be pushed down or be already down so that the disc is inline but lower than the line between the wrist and the elbow. This helps in keeping the nose of the disc down. It isn't easy to keep on holding on to the disc so that it will not slip out prior to the disc pivoting between the index finger and the thumb. Many don't have enough finger strength to accomplish that without training. Squeezing almost as hard with the middle finger as the index finger helps. When the wrist slows down the disc leaves the vicinity of the palm during the pivot. The disc moves with so much force that the index finger can't stay crooked and if you pinch hard enough the disc will pull the index finger straight pointed at the target. By this time the disc has pivoted so that only the finger print of the index finger and the thumb touch the disc at the rear of the disc. That, a straighter flight and added distance are indicators of a great snap. If you manage to turn the shoulders so that the arm is straight as the disc rips out and the shoulder line points to 11.30-11.45 o'clock with the target being at 12 o'clock you can't achieve more from power from body positions. After that only more acceleration and stronger retarding of the elbow and wrist during proper times adds more power along with a more powerful run up.
Comments, corrections, missing bits, anything? Is training advice and feel description of different muscles in different parts of the throw necessary in your opinions? How about a description of what body parts to move to where at different stages of the throw?
masterbeato
Double Eagle Member
- Joined
- Jun 14, 2007
- Messages
- 1,922
terazen said:
will do
This was my favorite part. Good writing. You pack a lot of detail in there.
This is very important to maximize\have snap. It is very much feel based. My foot work closes my hips, my foot pivot starts to open them, when they are almost open I add shoulder pull. Finally, I add arm speed to complete the explosion with the final rotation, wrist extension. In my mind it's as if one rotation is ending and I carry that rotation speed onto the next rotation. Timing.
Dr. Burd
Par Member
JR discussing forearm motion said:
I wish you had said that when discussing my video critique!
Open question to everyone in the know:
Before snap is built into muscle memory, would you say that keeping things loose and subsequently concentrating on gripping down hard & late in the throw is MORE important than finding/developing power/muscle to pull through with the forearm whip?
During practice over the last few days I have been concentrating on clamping down my grip as my forearm starts to move - this was inspired by rereading the Bent Elbow article on the main page. It's something I wasn't really doing, and the only thing lately that seemed simple enough to incorporate.
I think I'm moving in the right direction. My standstills are now 30' worm burners or ~160', and my normal drive is about 20-40ft. shorter than usual. Sounds comparable to other stories of field practice progression...right? =)
JR
* Ace Member *
I was balancing text length with the required amount of data and left out some data. Style and ease of understanding wise do you think that the time line should be simpler and more data should be explained elsewhere in the article?
Dr.Burd as of my current understanding you need all components simultaneously for best results. Clamping down hard doesn't add distance if the arm is slow. If the disc moves fast but it slips early you miss out on even more speed and spin. You need loose muscles for maximum speed generation even prior to the elbow chop and when you chop the muscles should still be as loose as possible while they automatically tense up from the effort of accelerating full tilt -not bulging fully like now I feel strong just like lifting max weights. Clamping down hard with the thumb lock is required for transferring all the created energy to the disc.
Now that Avery Jenkins and Erin Hemmings are registered shouldn't we politely ask, not swarm like piranhas, their input for this article because they truly throw faaaar? I know Erin has really studied disc behavior and whatnot. His Aerobie Pro Ring world distance record and the longest competition toss ever of primo plastic at 245 meters with a Roadrunner speaks volumes of his physical capabilities as well.
Dr.Burd as of my current understanding you need all components simultaneously for best results. Clamping down hard doesn't add distance if the arm is slow. If the disc moves fast but it slips early you miss out on even more speed and spin. You need loose muscles for maximum speed generation even prior to the elbow chop and when you chop the muscles should still be as loose as possible while they automatically tense up from the effort of accelerating full tilt -not bulging fully like now I feel strong just like lifting max weights. Clamping down hard with the thumb lock is required for transferring all the created energy to the disc.
Now that Avery Jenkins and Erin Hemmings are registered shouldn't we politely ask, not swarm like piranhas, their input for this article because they truly throw faaaar? I know Erin has really studied disc behavior and whatnot. His Aerobie Pro Ring world distance record and the longest competition toss ever of primo plastic at 245 meters with a Roadrunner speaks volumes of his physical capabilities as well.
JR
* Ace Member *
That's what I thought about the amount of data already. And it ain't enough to let as many as possible figure it out. Banjar made a close to correct figure lately. Paging all artists here for illustrations :-D
masterbeato
Double Eagle Member
- Joined
- Jun 14, 2007
- Messages
- 1,922
its better to learn timing then it is anything else. start with that first.
masterbeato said:
I disagree with this for the simple reason that certain body positions or bad fundamentals can block timing and make it impossible to learn.
That being said, once you have the fundamentals, then learning timing should drive everything else.
bcsst26
Birdie Member
Parks said:
Question is what is the best way to learn timing?
bcsst26 said:
For me, the best timing drill has been the towel snap drill. It combines timing, body positions, and what to do at the right time. Just snap a dish towel like you would in a locker room, then slowly work snapping the towel into a golf throw. Snap it from a standstill, add reach back and snap it from a standstill, then from a one step, until you have a full X-step and reachback while still being able to snap the towel hard. Build your throw around that.
Another good one would be the right pec drill, but I never had great results with that. That is how Masterbeato learned, however.
bcsst26
Birdie Member
Sounds good. I have been working on them. I can snap a towel some times but not every time. Just need more work on it.
The towel method is great. You can figure out timing in your home with hundreds of repetitions vs. walking miles to get in those reps with a disc.
It can be deceiving though. You can't pop it like you do in gym class(pulling back on the towel), the pop is from wrist extension. You can strong arm the towel and still produce a sound louder than the normal woosh. When you get it the sound is like a whip cracking, but done with a throwing motion. If you keep "Blake's 7 things to achieve snap" in mind it is great tool to hone your timing.
I've have actually had the towel rip out of my hand and fly through the air. It went from my living room, around the corner, and into the kitchen. Like a flipping flying carpet. Now that was good acceleration!
It can be deceiving though. You can't pop it like you do in gym class(pulling back on the towel), the pop is from wrist extension. You can strong arm the towel and still produce a sound louder than the normal woosh. When you get it the sound is like a whip cracking, but done with a throwing motion. If you keep "Blake's 7 things to achieve snap" in mind it is great tool to hone your timing.
I've have actually had the towel rip out of my hand and fly through the air. It went from my living room, around the corner, and into the kitchen. Like a flipping flying carpet. Now that was good acceleration!
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