Courtesy to female players in 2017 - Can it exist?

[Tripper]

Look, you want to be treated equally? Great, guys are going to talk chit. It is part of our culture. If you are interacting with men and they are not making fun of you in some way they are not treating you equally.

I rocked a pink bag for a bit and I had people yelling from 600' away "faaaaaaaaggggg". Is it an endearing quality of men? No. But if you want to be a part of that world you had better get thicker skin. If you cannot handle it maybe you shouldn't wish for equal treatment.

Sorry but that type of behavior is not part of my culture. I don't talk smack to my buddies or to anyone. I just speak to everyone the way I would like them to speak to my mother or children. It really is not that difficult to be civil. I know guys that behave that way but when they play with me they do not. The fun for them in being an obnoxious jerk wears off when I don't paticipate. It was simple to teach them not to behave that way, I just don't engage them.
Sorry to say this SonicGuy but you are part of the problem. For anyone to excuse this type of behavior as "guy culture" basically ensures it will continue. :thmbdown:

 

[Lazerface]

While I think the actual sweetheart comment is in bad taste I disagree that intent is "largely irrelevant" generally speaking. That is not to say you can just spout off whatever you want and hide behind the idea that "I wasn't trying to offend anyone". However, if intent is irrelevant then what is "offensive" become completely dependent on the subject who feels offended and there are a lot of problems with that. This is the whole micro-aggression, safe space conversation that we don't need to get into here, but this type of approach tends to divide the groups and does not help change anything. Intention is not irrelevant because it often defines what could be considered true sexism or misogyny VS stupid behavior. You can be offended by either, but how we handle the situation varies drastically by the intention.

I don't want to believe that disc golf has some sort of disproportionate share of misogyny than our culture as a whole as one poster stated. I don't think that is true, but have very limited experience playing with/around women, so I'm not going to assert anything. What is true is that groups of men certainly put on filters when a woman is around and since disc golfers are so used to not having those filters out on the course stuff gets awkward quick when a woman joins in/passes by. I think that is where the ignoring likely comes in as one poster explained well. One thing I have seen quite a bit of that is so freaking ridiculous is the "coaching" thing. I find that men really want to "coach" the women without them asking for it. This is one example of behavior we need to address and it is one that is mostly innocent from the male's perspective, but is patently uncomfortable and in poor taste.

I don't think we should ignore the issue and certainly should not blame or tell the OP to get over it. I want women to play disc golf, so regardless of social norms, it would be nice if we can get some dialogue like this going and urge our little culture to take steps so women feel comfortable out on the course, at tournaments, etc. But we should do it without making blanket statements and going all SJW about it, because that is counterproductive, illogical and creates division.

My wife explains how scary it is to go for a jog in the park by herself, especially if it's a woodsy trail with no crowds around. She wont walk our dog past sunset because of this fear and at first I thought it was so irrational, but it's not. Sure, odds are nothing bad will happen, but that does not change the real fear women have and there are plenty of media sources who drill that fear home. As men, we don't have those kind of fears (mostly) and our impulse can be to dismiss them when women do. I realize that is not what we are talking about, but as some posters have done here, and as we do in so many cases, when we cant rationalize a behavior we all have a tendency to write it off or start blaming the perception of the victim. While I think the OP may have let this behavior own her a bit too much, that does not translate to there being no problem at all.

I don't think what the OP encountered is all that uncommon and I don't think the behavior from the men was all that malicious, but it helps shed light on just how uncomfortable things can get out there for a woman. The creepy guys uttering sexy repeatedly, or whatever was going on there, is just ridiculous and he is the type that could benefit from an assertive response. Easier said than done if you are the woman on the receiving end of course, and we should not hold everyone to that standard.

The problem with these discussions is how caught up people get in their ideology and that often hampers rational discussion. In most cases, the actual problem and its solution is somewhere in the middle of the two extreme sides of the spectrum. It's good that we are talking about it and hopefully we can start to spread some sensible advice out to male disc golfers so they are checking their behavior and creating an environment that is welcoming to women. It's just important we are not misrepresenting the actual problem and are being fair about how it's addressed. I truly believe the vast majority of guys want more women playing.

 

[dorseymatt]

Wow, lots of opinions in this thread; some thoughtful, some repulsive. If DG is simply a cross-section of society, like any other activity, then you are going to see some terrible behavior, like we all see every day in everyday life.That bad behavior doesn't cause most of us to detach from society nor should it cause you to stop disc golfing. If you met some sexist jerk at the supermarket, you wouldn't stop shopping for food (I know this is a bit reductionist but illustrates my point, I think). If you enjoy DG, then enjoy it while knowing that occasionally you will run into some asshats, just like any other activity you do, going to a concert, club, driving, the supermarket, a sporting event, etc. Jerks are painfully common in all aspects of life, unfortunately, but it doesn't mean that we all just give up doing things we like.

I'm sure you're a lovely guy and I'm sure you mean well, but what you just wrote boils down to this: "deal with it." I don't think that's very productive. Women will continue to deal with it by not playing this sport.

 

[Mulligan]

Sorry but that type of behavior is not part of my culture.
Sorry to say this SonicGuy but you are part of the problem. For anyone to excuse this type of behavior as "guy culture" basically ensures it will continue. :thmbdown:

Yeah, I once found myself in a situation where I was playing solo with headphones in with a Nutsac and a group of three was really enjoying screaming fag at me. Actually took a minute for me to realize and then when I did stop to just look at them, it quickly escalated, and I didn't even say a word to them. It was 3 on one and I had to walk away to avoid a full out brawl, for literally no damn reason. They drove away screaming fag out the window, too. I didn't go back to that course for months. I'm a former Marine and I'll say I was shook up... I just was not in that mindset at the moment and was trying to relax. It affected how I behaved, and what I carried, on the course for about a solid year.

So, yeah, jerks exist, but we are talking about normalizing behavior when people are often out alone, in the woods, with no help to be found.
And in this convo, specifically women. Any of you want your wives/GFs being called "sweetheart" at the furthest point from her car, in the woods, in what are often isolated parks by some dill hole that thinks he's being cute?

The repressible excusing of the behavior as part of dude culture is 100% part of the problem.

 

[elkevo]

While I think the actual sweetheart comment is in bad taste

How is "sweetheart" in bad taste? As a man, I've been called things like "hun" and "sugar" by women more times than I can count. And men aren't the only ones to notice and comment on the opposite sex, or even the same sex anymore. I think this whole discussion is inflammatory at this point.

There are jerks out there - both male and female. The only thing we can do is just be a good example for others and help correct inappropriate behavior when we can.

 

[Reniger]

I didn't go back to that course for months. I'm a former Marine and I'll say I was shook up...

Ha! Yeah, that's who I'm going to talk smack to. Thank you for your service and sacrifice.

 

[Noill]

How is "sweetheart" in bad taste? As a man, I've been called things like "hun" and "sugar" by women more times than I can count. And men aren't the only ones to notice and comment on the opposite sex, or even the same sex anymore. I think this whole discussion is inflammatory at this point.

I'm wondering if it is the word or the attention or the idea that something will follow that is definitely not appreciated...

I don't know quite... we'll need to hear from some folks who have dealt with this and were bothered by it and why...

I can say that I can see why it may not be appreciated in many circumstances... especially on a disc golf course... near or in the woods or the like.

What does seem obvious is that it is not welcome behavior and we who are reading this thread would do well to incorporate that into our behavior.

 

[The Last DJ]

Running into jerks on the course is unavoidable. It happens to everyone at some point but try not to let it ruin your day. Perhaps the "safety in numbers" approach would work best. Play with some other folks: ladies or guys. It doesn't matter. You'll be less likely to get harassed in a small group.

I like the occasional solo round but when I go it alone, it's for a quiet round so I can decompress or practice a bit. When going solo, I try to find a park that is less popular so I have more likelihood of having the place to myself. Charlotte has plenty of options so you might consider playing solo rounds in areas less-traveled.

If I really need to tune out distractions, I'll rock the ear buds and just focus on my game. I realize these are more passive solutions for the OP. I suppose you can confront these issues head on but that might take away from the experience even more. It is an unfortunate truth that these gender issues are not related solely to disc golf but hopefully one of these solutions helps out.

 

[m_Krakov]

Yeah, I once found myself in a situation where I was playing solo with headphones in with a Nutsac and a group of three was really enjoying screaming fag at me. Actually took a minute for me to realize and then when I did stop to just look at them, it quickly escalated, and I didn't even say a word to them. It was 3 on one and I had to walk away to avoid a full out brawl, for literally no damn reason. They drove away screaming fag out the window, too. I didn't go back to that course for months. I'm a former Marine and I'll say I was shook up... I just was not in that mindset at the moment and was trying to relax. It affected how I behaved, and what I carried, on the course for about a year.

Dang. I know you're in my neck of the woods as I've bought some putters from you in the past...curious what course this was at?

Can't stand any type of intimidation or tough guy antics on the course. I regularly play with a group of three guys, and we've had solo women (on two occasions) join our group because other people on the course were giving them problems.

 

[Noill]

Yeah, I once found myself in a situation where I was playing solo with headphones in with a Nutsac and a group of three was really enjoying screaming fag at me. Actually took a minute for me to realize and then when I did stop to just look at them, it quickly escalated, and I didn't even say a word to them. It was 3 on one and I had to walk away to avoid a full out brawl, for literally no damn reason. They drove away screaming fag out the window, too. I didn't go back to that course for months. I'm a former Marine and I'll say I was shook up... I just was not in that mindset at the moment and was trying to relax. It affected how I behaved, and what I carried, on the course for about a solid year.

So, yeah, jerks exist, but we are talking about normalizing behavior when people are often out alone, in the woods, with no help to be found.
And in this convo, specifically women. Any of you want your wives/GFs being called "sweetheart" at the furthest point from her car, in the woods, in what are often isolated parks by some dill hole that thinks he's being cute?

The repressible excusing of the behavior as part of dude culture is 100% part of the problem.

Was this because the nutsac looked like a purse? Otherwise, I can't even fathom this... on 2nd thought, don't worry about answering this... it simply doesn't make any rational sense at all.

 

[Aim For The Chains]

I think ive called a few guys on the tee sexy and slapped their asses. Who doesnt like a little confidence booster b4 a big drive!?

Take it like a "queen" some people just suck at life and unfortunately i have seen a few of these out on the DGCs. The worst is probably downtown MPLS though and all the bros. :gross: Frolf on guuurl!

And find a DG hommie to play with.

 

[Lazerface]

How is "sweetheart" in bad taste? As a man, I've been called things like "hun" and "sugar" by women more times than I can count. And men aren't the only ones to notice and comment on the opposite sex, or even the same sex anymore. I think this whole discussion is inflammatory at this point.

There are jerks out there - both male and female. The only thing we can do is just be a good example for others and help correct inappropriate behavior when we can.

It's not "necessarily" in bad taste. Context matters. If a 70 year old gentleman holds the door open for a woman at a gas station and she says, "thank you" and he responds "your welcome sweetheart" I don't think that is bad taste and if the woman is offended by said gentleman then it's her issue.

I was referring to this specific example and without being there and observing the situation I can't say 100% if the comment was in bad taste, so I could be wrong. I should of said, "maybe the sweetheart comment was in bad taste".

I don't disagree with you and think we have a big problem in our culture with defining what is "offensive" and I was trying to make that clear in my post.

 

[Mulligan]

Dang. I know you're in my neck of the woods as I've bought some putters from you in the past...curious what course this was at?

Can't stand any type of intimidation or tough guy antics on the course. I regularly play with a group of three guys, and we've had solo women (on two occasions) join our group because other people on the course were giving them problems.

It was at the OSU course, obvious frat boys, but near an isolated parking lot so no one else was around.
They were so loud with their screaming at me though that after they left a duo that was 3 holes back tracked me down to ask what happened.

Thats disturbing that those women had to do that, but thanks for taking care of them.
That instance alone you mentioned should give us all pause.

 

[UP Mountain Man]

?

Also, fellow dudes, maybe it is on us to ask women how they want us to treat them while on the dg course.
Women disc golfers--what would you like us to do? What would you like us to NOT do?

^^^ This

 

[SonicGuy]

Sorry but that type of behavior is not part of my culture. I don't talk smack to my buddies or to anyone. I just speak to everyone the way I would like them to speak to my mother or children. It really is not that difficult to be civil. I know guys that behave that way but when they play with me they do not. The fun for them in being an obnoxious jerk wears off when I don't paticipate. It was simple to teach them not to behave that way, I just don't engage them.
Sorry to say this SonicGuy but you are part of the problem. For anyone to excuse this type of behavior as "guy culture" basically ensures it will continue. :thmbdown:

All right, simmer down white kaniget. How exactly am I "part of the problem" when I am the one being subjected to verbal jabs? Talk about victim blaming. All I am doing is understanding that men relate to each other in ways which are not appreciated by women. If women truly want to be treated equally they need to be prepared for treatment they are not accustomed to receiving.

The repressible excusing of the behavior as part of dude culture is 100% part of the problem.

Here the woman specifically wants to be treated like any other guy in "dude culture". My point is that no, she does not want equality, she wants special treatment so her delicate female sensibilities are not offended. And you know what? Yes, she does deserve to be treated differently, because women are different than men and chivalry should exist, inequality be damned.

 

[m_Krakov]

. My point is that no, she does not want equality, she wants special treatment so her delicate female sensibilities are not offended.

With statements like this you lose all credibility on a topic like this. I was willing to back you up as I thought Tripper was unfair to you. But he's right, you are part of the problem.

 

[Mulligan]

Here the woman specifically wants to be treated like any other guy in "dude culture". My point is that no, she does not want equality, she wants special treatment so her delicate female sensibilities are not offended.

I'm not sure you even have a point, in the cogent sense, but she specifically says she just doesn't want to be an object of that behavior in the OP. How is hard to fathom?

 

[SonicGuy]

I just want civility. Common courtesy such as one male player would show to another.

I'm not sure you even have a point, in the cogent sense, but she specifically says she just doesn't want to be an object of that behavior in the OP. How is hard to fathom?

She specifically says she wants common courtesy as is shown between male players. Well guess what sweetheart, this is exactly the courtesy shown between men.

And before you charge back saying "oh I would NEVER say anything uncouth" just cram it. You are a liar. Just like the whole locker room talk incident this last election, if you claim to have never engaged in such conversation you are a flat out liar.

See the courtesy I am showing you right now? This is how men behave

 

[Smigles]

Sexism isnt good. I think we all agree on that.

On the other hand you will not change the entire world with a thread here on this forum.

Maybe growing a little thicker skin would benefit your well-being. I am not saying that you should tolerate everything, but if a man calls you sweetheart and that ruins your entire day then there is a little something wrong on both ends.

What kind of solution are you hoping for here?

 

[dorseymatt]

She specifically says she wants common courtesy as is shown between male players. Well guess what sweetheart, this is exactly the courtesy shown between men.

And before you charge back saying "oh I would NEVER say anything uncouth" just cram it. You are a liar. Just like the whole locker room talk incident this last election, if you claim to have never engaged in such conversation you are a flat out liar.

See the courtesy I am showing you right now? This is how men behave

Nope.