CRG's 2012 bag thread

[Crazy Runner Guy]

Bag update

Paid a visit to GGGT this weekend, so here's a second update going into 2013. New discs in bold, and as you can see my bag is more or less getting a large overhaul for 2013.

Bag
Innova Competition

TRADITIONAL WEIGHTS
Distance Drivers
175 DX Firebird - stupidly overstable
167 Pro Valkyrie - new

Fairway Drivers
169 DX Eagle-X - seasoning
170 DX Teebird - seasoned perfectly
167 Pro Leopard - new

Mids
170 Z Hornet - new
175 Z Comet - new
170 X Comet - seasoned, almost a little too much
170 X Comet - new

Putters
167 SE Rhyno - Very beat, all putts
2x 174 Pro Rhyno - Approaches/backup putting/all OS drives (rotate /w twin)
176 Opto Pure - Driving putter (see on-deck circle)

150 CLASS
146 DX Eagle-X - seasoning
149 Star Teebird - new
149 Z Hornet - new
149 DX Rhyno - new

Driving putters on-deck (Not currently in bag)
170 Yeti (best flight of three)
168 5x JK (best grip of three)
165 SS Wizard (worst grip and flight of three, likely b/c rim is too tall)

The Valk and the Leo were picked up to deal with shots that must finish left. I realized that Teebirds aren't going to cut it for that shot because it's too easy to overcook them. The Eagles may get there when well-seasoned, but they're not there yet.

I chose the Valk in Pro plastic (over DX in a close second and Star and Champ in distance third and four places) because it will wear in fast enough but hold that sweet spot longer than DX. It also should be a better distance driver than my 1x Beast, which I can't get any turn out of but wasn't overstable enough to handle winds i.e. it was too much disc for me. I intend to use it on wide-open holes, and every course has a few.

Leo got picked in Pro plastic b/c of recommendations above and the consensus that its better than DX when starting to throw Leos. I may move to Champ/Star/Echo later, but we'll see after I beat this one up a little bit.

Adding the additional molds to the bag will cause me to be more selective when I walk up to my lie. I could easily play a round - and have - with Rhyno/Comet/Teebird/Eagle, but the other molds open up more shots.

The 150 Bag is also more or less filled out until things get seasoned in. The DX Teebirds from prior posts may find their way in eventually, but I have been really disappointed in their durability. So it's going to be Star Teebird in that slot - something I have been wanting to move to for 150 class TB's.

If anything does get added to it, it will just be a replica of my Traditional Weight bag - Leo, Valk, and I will eventually need a stupidly overstable disc in Champ plastic (Banshees and Firebirds are leading contenders). I see the 150 bag as a derivative of the Traditional Weights, so what goes heavy will likely get worked down into the lighter weights.

I know it's a lot of discs to wear in, but my course should be reasonably open early season and with daylight savings time giving enough evening time to get a round or two in, it should work well enough. Every disc needs to start wearing in somewhere.

 

[jdw80550]

I wish I didn't dye discs sometimes, because DX and Pro plastics does feel so good. I have a buddy who loves his DX Eagle, and that is the really the only thing he likes to throw. He finally decided to take me up on putter. He hates Champ and Star plastics and really loves DX. He throws big bendy shots with the Eagle, what would be your recommendation for best DX disc to add to his bag?

 

[Crazy Runner Guy]

I wish I didn't dye discs sometimes, because DX and Pro plastics does feel so good. I have a buddy who loves his DX Eagle, and that is the really the only thing he likes to throw. He finally decided to take me up on putter. He hates Champ and Star plastics and really loves DX. He throws big bendy shots with the Eagle, what would be your recommendation for best DX disc to add to his bag?

Sticking with Innova, Rhyno or small bead Aviar for putters.

Also, Valk and Leo are for RIGHT-finishing shots. That's right, I grow rhbh and typo above.

 

[Qikly]

CRG - I perused your entire bag thread, and I never saw an explicitly-stated reason for your use of a 150 class bag. I'd be curious to hear your motivations.

 

[Crazy Runner Guy]

I can't remember which was first: reading DGR's 150 Class Lovers thread or Mashnut's 150 class posts here or the 150 Class Tournament Bag in this subforum or picking up my two 147g Teebirds at PIAS.

Anywho, the idea of throwing lighter weights was that clicked with me when I picked up the game again last summer. Blizzard plastic had just come out in force and I was seriously considering getting a sub-140g Wraith. Then I did a lot of reading on DGCR and realized my arm can't make a Wraith do what it should, and so I should throw slower drivers. Of course there are no slower Blizzard discs.

I like throwing 150 class because of the extra distance and requirement of a smooth, clean throw. Like Comets, they'll tell you if you didn't throw them right but what then do it just goes. If I can get a clean throw with a light disc that goes further, is more accurate, and handles course conditions just as well, why not?

The main reason for not throwing such light stuff is that it is more susceptible to wind than heavier discs. Discs get more hyzer angle and I tend to reach for the Eagle (over a Teebird) sooner than I would in heavier weights. Putters and mids tend to get really knocked around. The 149 Star Teebird, even still very fresh, is either the longest disc in my bag right now or it just lags behind my seasoned 170 DX, and that's likely only because it hasn't lost its fade yet.

So perhaps the 150 class stuff is there for novelty, but I like having them in the bag. It's like playing putter-only or putter-mid only rounds, it's there for training for something more even though it is capable of playing full rounds by itself.

 

[Qikly]

:thmbup:

Thanks for the thorough explanation! I'll have to check out the threads you mentioned. Like you, I'm a smooth-over-power thrower, so I'm curious to learn more and see if throwing lighter weights suits my game.

Cheers!

 

[Crazy Runner Guy]

A little thread necromancy, but here we go.

Threw for the first time over the weekend in several months - wife is done with law school, studying for the bar, and the bar exam my racing season is over. Hence I have at least until the snow accumulates to get some discing in.

The bag is the same as above, and looking back, I'm very appreciative of all of the advice I've received in this thread and info I've learned throughout the site. My form is more or less the same b/c of muscle memory but distance and hit are down, as expected. But the silver lining of the weekend was that my throws were smooth, with no OAT. I wasn't strong arming my discs, but spend some practice time doing Beato drills and focusing on snap and throwing from the hit. "Go throw putters in a field," as the phrase goes (and I did, throwing five of my eight putters - I didn't throw my main putter, my 150 Rhyno or my Birdie).

Any with my disc selection, nothing currently in there permits strong-arming or OAT, so it was nice to see the throws come out smooth, even if my nose angle and height still need some work. The Yeti is still the best my Aviar-like drivers, although the Pure is up there. The Comets - especially the Z - have stupid amounts of glide when thrown next to anything else.

The Pro Leo is taking a while to break in, and it definitely throws straight out with a little fade, and it is a noticeably slower disc than my Eagles or Teebirds. The heavy DX Eagle is also very slow to break in, and it is a very stiff disc.

I've been very pleased with the Pro Valk, too - just throwing for fun on wide-open holes. It's a very long disc when I hit it well, but there's no turn in it yet.

 

[Crazy Runner Guy]

Wrong thread.

 

[Crazy Runner Guy]

I'm going to commit heresy and take the SE Rhyno out of my bag. Two reasons: my (R-)Pro's are 5 g heavier, and they are stiffer and stickier. My non-scientific experience putting with all of my Rhynos (150 DX; 172 soft R-Pro; 2x 174 stiff (R-)Pro and 169 Ontario SE) is that the recent run of (R-)Pro's stick the best to chains and poles. Soft vs. Hard and grippy vs. slick putters from DGR.

I think the Leo is going to stay in the bag. Finally had a good round with it and was starting to get a little turn out of it, especially when the wind picked up into my face, even slightly.

Rounds lately have been Leo/Pure/Rhynos despite carrying a full bag as the Leo beats in I try to throw putters more.

Also, I'm moving to the St. Paul/Minneapolis area in about two weeks, so perhaps I'll see you out at Blue Ribbon Pines or some other grand area in the Twin Cities. Weekends only right now.

 

[Qikly]

Whoa. That's a serious breakdown of putters/putting right there.

It's funny to read that, because I've gravitated towards floppier and floppier putters over the short-ish time playing. I recently reached the pinnacle when I bought a Vibram Soft VP for utility purposes and ended up going to it more and more; it's now my main putter. I practice with Mediums too but put with Softs almost exclusively when "it's on the line." I feel like their high amount of give is an advantage. It's hard to argue with the much more experienced and thorough breakdown in the DGR thread, but subjectively I still believe in my Softs. Very interesting read, though; it'll give me so good food for thought going forward.

Tangentially, CRG, have you ever considered/tried putting with something less OS than the Rhyno? I love the feel of my VPs, but I sometimes wonder if I should try a less OS putter out. On days where I'm putting less confidently and not getting enough snap, they sure do fade out quickly.

 

[Crazy Runner Guy]

Tangentially, CRG, have you ever considered/tried putting with something less OS than the Rhyno? I love the feel of my VPs, but I sometimes wonder if I should try a less OS putter out. On days where I'm putting less confidently and not getting enough snap, they sure do fade out quickly.

Considered yes, tried not really. If I did, I would likely go with a BB Aviar mold, perhaps KC. I've felt up other putters and not liked the feel: practically all of Discraft's line, I can't stand the feel of MVP plastic, Wizards are too deep (1.8 cm height).

I've said this elsewhere, but I love putting with Rhynos because I am a pitch putter (Putting styles illustrated by BroD) and Rhynos are like pitching horseshoes to me. They have no glide, go only as far as you want them to go, and don't go very far if you miss.

 

[Crazy Runner Guy]

An update. Bags are the same as the above, but I've put in several rounds at my new local 9 hole course.

The DX Firebird is more seasoned than I thought it was. Hole 8 of my local course is stated at 400' feet, but it plays like 275-300 because it's straight and the teebox is elevated on a mound 20+ feet high. I can park the hole with a my seasoned DX Roc. I threw the Firebird yesterday off the mound off to level with teepad and off to the right into a moderate breeze, no more than about 10 MPH and it all-but failed to fade out, instead landing just left of the line I put it on. Very odd throw. I'm thinking it needs to be complimented with a Champ/Star Firebird in max weight.

I'm pleasantly surprised with the Pro Leo. It's now seasoned perfectly, about an 8/10 my guess. I've been throwing it on a gentle hyzer and it flips flat, will turn a little, and then fade out softly. Thrown flat, it turns right and then fades back again. I can put it out to about 285/300 on a dead-straight or "S" curve line. In sum, it's much like by seasoned DX Teebird but far more controllable for right-turning shots. It won't turn-and-burn like an overcooked TB will. That gentle right-turning short has been something that has been missing in my bag, and I'm glad to have it back. It's currently the second or third longest disc in my main bag, behind the DX Teebird (clearly first) and the Firebird (in appropriate situations). It's also turning into a good roller. I'm resolved to keeping the Leo in the bag and cycling them in Pro plastic - one for rolling, one for throwing.

The Valkyrie, while feeling almost identical plastic-wise to the Leo, is still flying straight with a good amount of fade (less than the Eagle-X, more like a fresh DX Teebird would). It's not broken in enough yet for me to get turn in it, but it's still a nice disc. It's shorter than my Teebird and Leo because of its fade.

The 169 DX Eagle is still surprisingly stiff and overstable. I've probably thrown it more than the Leo, but it's nowhere near the level of wear. I'm beginning to think whether it has a place in the bag, especially if I were to put it head-to-head with a Star of Champ Teebird. I'm using the Eagle for fairway shots where I need something to handle wind, skip, or otherwise fade - something my seasoned Teebird won't do - but it's clearly the shortest fairway driver in my bag because of its overstability and fade.

On Rocs and Comets, my seasoned DX Roc, removed from the bag above but added back in after my long time away from the game, overlaps with each of the Comets in my bag. As far as flight goes, the Roc flies straight when thrown with hyzer. The Comets go hold their release angle and are great for dead-straight shots. I'm putting each of them out to about 275', and I prefer throwing the X over the Z because of the feel of the plastic. It's much like the Pro plastic of the Leo and Valk, but slightly softer. In sum, I'm not sure what to do about this overlap situation. I have thought about cycling ESP Comets in the stable/understable mid roles, and I guess I'm looking for a similar setup between my fairways - moderately overstable, stable, and understable - in my mids. I don't have that right now, and I'm curious as to how to get there. I'd like to keep mids to two molds, which gets us to the next and final disc. Perhaps a KC Pro/Star Rancho paired with cycled Comets? The other option is to cycle Rocs only.

The Hornet is, as mentioned above, a mini Eagle-X but with more fade. Just like the Eagle-X, I'm not sure whether it has a place in the bag. I think I'd rather have something moderately overstable to handle mid shots where a Z Comet/DX Roc won't handle (think moderate headwinds) but the Hornet is too much.

Finally, my new residence has a short field behind it that is maybe 250' long - perfect for tossing putters in. I've been working on throwing from a stand still, weight shift, and pivoting properly. Right now, I can put my bevy of putters out to about 200/225 from the stand-still, with my Yeti/JK being the longest, then the Pure on a good toss (it's neutral stability and sharp edges of the Opto plastic makes releases difficult), then the Rhynos. With an improved form, I'm eager to consistently push putters out to 250'+, mids to 300', and drivers consistently to 300-325'+.

 

[whitefedora]

Replace the hornet with a flat ti wasp and don't look back.

 

[Bardu]

DX Firebird, what kind of distance are you getting out of it? I can't get my Champ (167) any further than my putters even if I really give it some power. Mine is even domey and it will not come close to turning even in 30-40 mph wind, despite its weight.

When I threw DX Eagles, they were beating into something resembling (I'm guessing) your Pro Leo within about two weeks of use. Basically they would turn throughout much of the flight with just enough to fade to always come back a little at the end.

 

[Crazy Runner Guy]

I can throw the Firebird 275-300 straight out and that's a throw off to the right and the fade onto the line. It's got a nice dome to it, but I haven't seen a 12x in person in a while to compare it to. The more I watch ITB videos, the more I see that pros carry multiple Firebirds/Predators and I'm curious how that is going to play out as the DX wears. I'd like to compliment it with a couple Champ FB's - one FAF and one domey - if I start throwing the FB more or drop the Eagle.

As for the Eagle, I don't doubt that it will break in, but it's just very, very stiff for a DX disc. It's nothing like the Leopard, more like a very overstable Teebird - lots of HSS, LSS, and glide and it fits the stability slot between the Teebird and Firebird nicely.

 

[Crazy Runner Guy]

This weekend I threw one of those rounds that just makes you question everything. My release point was off (releasing early) and release angle was wonky with lots of nose up. It was windy, but I don't think that necessarily affected things. So it's back to basics, working from the ground up and from the hit backwards. Beato drills (although I think he pulls from the left pec...), throwing from a stand still, hammer pound.

Drivers: 275/300
175 DX Firebird 7/10: straight with fade, nicely seasoned.
170 DX Teebird 6/10: dead straight, will float right with less hyzer. Needs a 170 Star to complement.
167 Pro Leo 8/10: perfectly seasoned, slight hyzer flip/flat/turn.

Mids: 250/275
175 DX Roc 6/10: Straight. Hyzer flip/flat.
175 Z Comet 9/10: Straight. Overlaps with Roc. Wind Comet.
170 X Comet 8/10: Straight. Main Comet.

Putters: 200/225
174 [R-]Pro Rhynos (x2) 8/10: Each is getting nice and gritty and worn in. Stiff and grippy.

On the discs as I work through this re-building phase.

The Eagle is out for now in the interest in discing down a little. It's too overstable at the moment and the Firebird can fill the overstable driver role as necessary.

For now, the Teebird/Leo combo will stay the main set up, barring me picking up a speed six control driver (DX Gazelle; ESP/X Cyclone; etc.). The two cover different lines but overlap slightly in that I can throw each dead-straight on a similar line and can make each finish left with enough hyzer, but finishing right is where the two differ. The Teebird will float right and keep going until it fades gently, whereas the Leo will come back slightly. I'm beginning to see why the Cheetah is so highly recommended for this control driver slot if it has the same turn as a Leo but more but not too much fade. Why doesn't Innova make it in anything other than DX? I will likely add a Star Teebird to have that moderately overstable fairway spot covered.

For mids, the Hornet is out. It's far too overstable for my use, and I have been unable to throw it without OAT - even when I am throwing Comets smoothly. The combination of glide and overstability is also a very weird mix. It's like the glide of the disc holds back its HSS because the wind has too much space underneath and it bounces the disc around. In calm conditions, the glide is great to keep it airborne and the fade is nice and healthy for a hard left finish. But once the wind picks up, I don't trust it and that's a problem.

I see some overlap in the Roc and Z Comet, and less so between those two discs and the X Comet. I like having a moderately overstable mid – especially because the Rhynos are so glideless – but the Hornet was just too much. I think the next step here is a KC/Star Roc paired with DX Roc and Z Comet, with the X Comet staying in the bag for those nice right turns. I just can't get it in my mind to kick the Comets or the Roc out, but the overlap is there and it frustrates me. Both are excellent discs, if not the best disc their respective manufacturers make.

The Pure is something of an enigma. I find myself throwing the stiff Rhynos and my Aviars (JK and Yeti) better in practice throws and on the course, and it is like the Pure is coming out of my hand slower, with less snap and with less air speed. Maybe it's the Opto plastic that makes it appear like that? I know, archer not the arrow. It does pair well with the Rhynos in that it is dead-nuts straight and will float right if necessary. But the distance difference I expected isn't there, and I think that Comets do what the Pure will do on longer lines, with better control and will power down better. I'll continue to use it in practice but like the Eagle and Hornet, I don't necessarily trust it when I pick it out of the bag. I'm thinking getting putting the Yeti back in (170g) for putter drives and approaches, or getting a max weight KC Pro might be the next best option (or even a DX PnA?) to handle putter drives.

 

[Streets]

^Like the super stripped down bag. I'm going through the same thing right now after a less than stellar tourney performance this past weekend. Down to a beat DX Aviar, beat DX Roc, Pro Leo, and Star TB to figure things out. Good luck man!

 

[Uncle Matt]

I'm doing the same thing man.

After finally realizing that High Speed Drivers are not for me,I stripped my bag way down too.

I like this concept. :thmbup:

 

[Meillo]

Normally, I'd be sorry to revive such an old thread, but this one is so great, that it should be brought up on top from time to time.

Take the time to follow the evolution of CRG's bag! He writes a lot about his reasoning, and besides, his bag is a great example for a Garu bag in reality.

 

[Crazy Runner Guy]

2020, going in to 2021.

Drivers: 275/300
175 DX Firebird 7/10: straight with fade, nicely seasoned.
170 DX Teebird 6/10: dead straight, will float right with less hyzer. Needs a 170 Star to complement.
167 Pro Leo 8/10: perfectly seasoned, slight hyzer flip/flat/turn.

Mids: 250/275
175 DX Roc 6/10: Straight. Hyzer flip/flat.
175 Z Comet 9/10: Straight. Overlaps with Roc. Wind Comet.
170 X Comet 8/10: Straight. Main Comet.

Putters: 200/225
174 [R-]Pro Rhynos (x2) 8/10: Each is getting nice and gritty and worn in. Stiff and grippy.

After a long hiatus of discing while kiddos were born and aged, my eldest (8 now) starting getting interested in disc golf. Bag as above is still there, with things a bit more warn (i.e. that DX Roc is probably about a 4 or 5/10, and it needs a fresh one and a something of a more premium plastic to be the consistent stable /w fade midrange; the Teebird needs some new companions, too; etc.).

But after the break, coming back to it was great to have the simplicity in molds and just having a minimal amount of discs/molds to do what I needed to do, and minimized the learning curve of how to throw each one.