Dg spin doctor, How to throw with using hips!

[seedlings]

It's very important (the most important) to remember that, what we see happen in Will's or any other pro's form is NOT the way they intend to move. As we move quickly, the momentum takes over anyway and we end up in positions we never intended to. That is why people talk about the lawn mower and the "pull" even if the body never moves like that. But the intention can resemble the pull, and we may even feel like pulling the chord while never actually looking like we do.

It's mostly because of the follow through, which makes the body rotate even if we don't rotate intentionally. And despite I and TT is showing, the elbow really never gets to that position even if we intend to chicken wing. Tha bracing and the hips makes the body spin before we get the elbow out, but I if never even try to "break the glass" the arm might just collapse to the body and the elbof falls to less than 90 degrees.

It really is a different game to teach the feeling, to feel and to throw, and then look at the throw in slow motion.

To achieve static positions that are part of compound movements, you need help, lol:

https://youtu.be/Os3IcGVpoPA

 

[Jaani]

Hah, true!

Like, of course my back foot is on the ground when I stand there showing how hips work.

 

[RowingBoats]

It really is a different game to teach the feeling, to feel and to throw, and then look at the throw in slow motion.

This is pretty much my philosophy as well. I watched a few of your videos and I think you are doing a good job attempting to get people to feel a few key things. No one can perfectly explain all of these concepts, and even if they could, not everyone will absorb it as intended.

I guess a lot of this comes down to people's goals also. We have people here who's actual goal is to dissect this move as far as it can possibly be dissected, for the sake of pure knowledge.

Then there are people like me who wanted to learn how to throw reasonably far, and now are more interested in distilling the feeling of the swing to make playing the game more consistent and fun. To me the game became way, way more fun when it started to feel like I was just doing a simple action that I understood viscerally, rather than trying to invoke a good throw with a mystical replication of postures.

Nothing wrong with any of the goals people have I can just see how these differences lead to caring about different aspects of content we are looking at.

 

[HyzerRoc]

I appreciate the corrections by everyone.

I will say that I got a chuckle out of his slowed down pics being compared to that specific Will video hahaha. Im a standstill player and have watched that freaking video like 10000 times now. Smoothest **** ever.

That is also how I started out years ago - seeing this Will video once and just wanting to move as smooth as he is. In the video he emphasizes how far you need to turn your shoulders so naturally I started leaning towards my backleg.

 

[Sheep]

Things about teaching and making video's.

Demonstrating things in a proper fashion while hyper focusing on the particular thing you're talking about is very difficult.

You generally start making errors in other places.

I have multiple times shot video's where I am focusing on teaching a particular mechanic and spin out in the video and have to start over. Why? Because people are more concerned with nitpicking that I spun out vs listening to the message.

Then we get to a point of doing static demonstrations, which is even harder yet, where we are trying to demonstrate things, but people fixate on everything but what is being demonstrated again.

As coaches, we should be better about this and understand between us when this happens.

However, people watching the video's unfortunately don't understand this which is the hard part, and some people just want to poo poo on video's because "you cannot throw with x like y! its not possible" and they dismiss that person because of it, or whatever other dumb thing such as copying the part that isn't being demonstrated.

This stuff is so dumb at this point that I just am getting to the point of watching a lot of coaching/form video's is becoming unbearable.

 

[drk_evns]

To achieve static positions that are part of compound movements, you need help, lol:

https://youtu.be/Os3IcGVpoPA

this is true when you bring momentum into the equation, but I feel like I can go slowly through the motions of the entire throw and stay balanced.

It just means you're using less (no) dynamic balance to fight momentum. If you're throwing with no momentum, you should have no weight on the back foot (and nothing necessary to prop yourself up) and everything on the front, right? Essentially one leg drill.

 

[Brychanus]

this is true when you bring momentum into the equation, but I feel like I can go slowly through the motions of the entire throw and stay balanced.

It just means you're using less (no) dynamic balance to fight momentum. If you're throwing with no momentum, you should have no weight on the back foot (and nothing necessary to prop yourself up) and everything on the front, right? Essentially one leg drill.

Hogan slow drill (right), then Hogan full speed swing slowed down.



What changes with momentum? What does not?

What changes about the hips work? What does not?

What changes in an X-step, what does not?

Whatever you do, swang that thang!

 

[Brychanus]

^* slow drill is on left hehe

 

[Kennets]

Things about teaching and making video's.

Demonstrating things in a proper fashion while hyper focusing on the particular thing you're talking about is very difficult.

You generally start making errors in other places.

I have multiple times shot video's where I am focusing on teaching a particular mechanic and spin out in the video and have to start over. Why? Because people are more concerned with nitpicking that I spun out vs listening to the message.

Then we get to a point of doing static demonstrations, which is even harder yet, where we are trying to demonstrate things, but people fixate on everything but what is being demonstrated again.

As coaches, we should be better about this and understand between us when this happens.

However, people watching the video's unfortunately don't understand this which is the hard part, and some people just want to poo poo on video's because "you cannot throw with x like y! its not possible" and they dismiss that person because of it, or whatever other dumb thing such as copying the part that isn't being demonstrated.

This stuff is so dumb at this point that I just am getting to the point of watching a lot of coaching/form video's is becoming unbearable.

Out of curiosity, do you have a youtube channel or anything like that? I like how you boil stuff down on paper and your views on form in general, so i would might benefit from a video

 

[RowingBoats]

I guess I can see the value in accurately being able to slow things down, and it is more possible than I figured.

I'm not sure it is helpful to do so for people who haven't felt the chain actually work with momentum though. I can see it being more confusing to some people (like me if I try to empathize with my more noobish self lol).

 

[sidewinder22]

this is true when you bring momentum into the equation, but I feel like I can go slowly through the motions of the entire throw and stay balanced.

It just means you're using less (no) dynamic balance to fight momentum. If you're throwing with no momentum, you should have no weight on the back foot (and nothing necessary to prop yourself up) and everything on the front, right? Essentially one leg drill.

Depends somewhat on your width of stance. If your stance is fairly narrow(like most ball golf) then the rear foot can remain on the ground and it doesn't get in the way/stuck and it also doesn't spin out/twist on the ground.

 

[Brychanus]

I guess I can see the value in accurately being able to slow things down, and it is more possible than I figured.

I'm not sure it is helpful to do so for people who haven't felt the chain actually work with momentum though. I can see it being more confusing to some people (like me if I try to empathize with my more noobish self lol).

Yeah, it's another one of those "depends on where you are and what it's for" tools, I think.

Like seedlings and SW and Jaani are saying, being able to stop stacked and balanced all of the sudden in a continuous move gets weird once your body mass & stance cover enough distance. Some of it is the details of the action, some of it is pure momentum effects/their unity.

RB, like you're saying, I also think my slow swings became even more useful after figuring out where power from momentum and swing "tension" in the body comes from, e.g. especially with some door frame drills, sledgehammer throws, and progressively bigger Hershyzer and Ride the Bull. Big, "meaty" movement of the body. So I relate to what you're saying there. A lot of the chain is actually "reactive" to adding momentum, so it can get easier to get more mileage out of slow swings once you start connecting with those moves and feelings without overthinking them, I believe. It gave me the insight that you can actually do a lot with tiny bits of momentum if your body is sensitive enough to it.

Specific places I've found slow swings super helpful, especially while recovering from a few body issues again the past ~2 months or so. Won't be the same for everyone but a couple potential nuggets here:

1. "Academic": pure analysis and understanding basic mechanics & the role of momentum as has been discussed above. When I watch what happens in Hogan's slow chain, it's important to notice how similar a lot of the posture and sequence can look in anatomical terms. Then, in a real drive slowed down, I see all that body action with a sudden abrupt shift, momentum of the arms pulling him taut against that sick shift, all that good stuff. I just frankly find it fascinating so it keeps me engaged. It also helped me understand why RB and Sidewinder and Jaani and Sheep etc. basically share aspects of "freewheeling" swing theory in common. I'm sold on any consensus to be found there, fwiw.

2. Practical: Once I started getting mAss leading more, I think my swing is becoming as smooth as it is because I usually would work back up from 50% or slower in general, often right after a minor injury somewhere from pushing something too far too early. Sometimes going ultra slow like SW's perpetual drill or literally Hogan with golf club helped me find little hitches and kinks that I can smooth out over time. It has been saving some of the body tax as a result. Definitely helped me get more sensitive to "stacking" and ground pressure and stuff that has protected my knees in the last few months.

3. Practical: Taking it slow, then gradually adding momentum can make you feel the transition between the sub-throwing acceleration and throwing acceleration, and made me way more sensitive to all those cool "reactive" dynamics the body does when you add momentum. I had such poor body awareness starting out that I think this has been an important long-run payout. Also, my upshots and midrange drive precision and accuracy started getting dramatically better in the last few months even with a few mechanical issues, I think in part because my tempo mastery is suddenly getting much better. Kind of feels like a snowball effect. Helps pursue that "be the disc" feeling mentioned in the other thread and keep massaging it into my uptempo/momentous drive practice.

4. My preshot routine makes it much clearer how slow practice pumps and walk throughs relate to setting a shot for the much more momentous swing. I used to be super body confused when I actually moved to tee off, but way less recently.

 

[Sheep]

3. Practical: Taking it slow, then gradually adding momentum can make you feel the transition between the sub-throwing acceleration and throwing acceleration, and made me way more sensitive to all those cool "reactive" dynamics the body does when you add momentum. I had such poor body awareness starting out that I think this has been an important long-run payout. Also, my upshots and midrange drive precision and accuracy started getting dramatically better in the last few months even with a few mechanical issues, I think in part because my tempo mastery is suddenly getting much better. Kind of feels like a snowball effect. Helps pursue that "be the disc" feeling mentioned in the other thread and keep massaging it into my uptempo/momentous drive practice.

To throw a curveball in here as well.

And I think this is something I need to state because a lot of us seem to forget sometimes, myself included.

Some people cannot go slow and dial it up.

There are some people who learn by going hard in the paint and dialing it back to dial it back up.

So, these complex motions that are actually really simple, if were to let jesus take the wheel during the throw, some people just need to grip and rip, then be guided that way to feel it.

 

[seedlings]

To throw a curveball in here as well.

And I think this is something I need to state because a lot of us seem to forget sometimes, myself included.

Some people cannot go slow and dial it up.

There are some people who learn by going hard in the paint and dialing it back to dial it back up.

So, these complex motions that are actually really simple, if were to let jesus take the wheel during the throw, some people just need to grip and rip, then be guided that way to feel it.

My form seems to be comparable to a pendulum. There is a sweet spot where motions feel natural to replicate, and pushing the ball harder or more gently does not necessarily increase or decrease the period. Of course I can throw more slowly and more quickly, with limits in either direction.

Many throwers have extraordinary similarities, yet each thrower is unique. I appreciate many different approaches to teaching, because the feeling of the action of doing is always subjective.

 

[Brychanus]

To throw a curveball in here as well.

And I think this is something I need to state because a lot of us seem to forget sometimes, myself included.

Some people cannot go slow and dial it up.

There are some people who learn by going hard in the paint and dialing it back to dial it back up.

So, these complex motions that are actually really simple, if were to let jesus take the wheel during the throw, some people just need to grip and rip, then be guided that way to feel it.

I think there's individual variability in this too for sure. If I had started at 18-20 at my peak overall boxing fitness and flexibility, I probably (definitely) could have taken a lot more momentous movement with less risk of injury early on. I was way more limber and coordinated, less muscularly "top heavy," and my legs were in significantly better shape. On the other end of the spectrum, there are some people whose baseline movement is so poor (often older adults with very little athletic background or real physical limits) that it is worth starting nearer to the slow-as-molasses end. The fact that it differs for everyone evokes some of the more "art-like" coaching issues that come up IMHO until there is a better way to go about it.

Related, because I frankly just don't think people talk about this enough and I've been learning a lot about it in other throwing sports: my recent fascination with strength and conditioning is mostly about the transition from (1) rehab to (2) adequate baseline conditioning (which can mean more than one thing!) to pull off a move, to (3) specialized additional training for high-level throwers. I'm transitioning between 1 & 2 myself, which is also a gatekeeper to managing certain more momentous moves. Some people already move and handle momentum pretty well, and there conversely you need to decide when and where slowing down helps.

Often, the people who are trenchant "hard in the paint" advocates started younger, healthier, and moved pretty well to begin with. Often, the "take it slow, now even slower, then speed up" people have had one or more significant injuries and/or started older and have found various ways in which slowing down has truly helped them develop sick swings. Obviously like all generalizations I'm casting wide nets, but you get my point lol. I am personally much closer to that latter end of the spectrum in my own development, but that doesn't mean it's the path for everyone. And I still of course need to work at sufficient momentum to push distance and teach my body new things about the swing. There is no way around it. I just need to rest more often than I used to admit to myself when I'm working on pushing limits.

I do also think probably in the next 10 years we're going to see a wave of healthy young crushers going down more frequently to injuries in their 30s on tour, and probably in lower tiers as well. There are a lot of players who are throwing equally far, but IMO there are some who are more mechanically efficient than others. Each body and form also probably has robust and vulnerable points in it in the long run. And the dramatic increase in course lengths, competitive demands, and premium on distance are going to push bodies to their absolute limits. It's not the kind of prediction I like because I'll be upset if I'm correct.

What was this thread about? The hips?