DGCR Scratch Scoring Estimate

[mashnut]

So you trolled him instead of responding to his (valid) points? The post he was replying to implied that the ssa there was based on only local players and was somehow inflated. Despite that post being obviously misinformed on how the rating system actually works, ur wrote out a thoughtful response including the fact that when the top players from other parts of the country played there the same ssa came out of the ratings.

 

[jtreadwell]

So you trolled him instead of responding to his (valid) points? The post he was replying to implied that the ssa there was based on only local players and was somehow inflated. Despite that post being obviously misinformed on how the rating system actually works, ur wrote out a thoughtful response including the fact that when the top players from other parts of the country played there the same ssa came out of the ratings.

Good point Mashnut, sorry Ur. I really didn't have a good response so didn't want to make anything up. I just found the "ignoring the trollish nature of this post" comment amusing and felt like being snide.

 

[MNcyclone]

So you trolled him instead of responding to his (valid) points? The post he was replying to implied that the ssa there was based on only local players and was somehow inflated. Despite that post being obviously misinformed on how the rating system actually works, ur wrote out a thoughtful response including the fact that when the top players from other parts of the country played there the same ssa came out of the ratings.

Pshhhhh, the trollish nature of my post was evident for everyone to observe. But that doesn't change the fact that SSA is NOT a valid metric.

In Bolf the course rating and slope are determined by professionals that have standards to give each course a rating based on how those standards have been met.

In disc golf we simply take how a group of players plays and takes it as a fact that on average they played to the course's skill level. It could be raining that tourney and that makes the course a legitimately more challenging course overall even when it is not? SSA is fine for gauging how you did in relation to other disc golfers in a single tournament. SSA is not qualified to rate a course's difficulty beyond that.

The objective metric used by DGCR at this time (SSE) is MUCH closer to what Bolf uses and much closer to legitimacy as well. Obviously the site cannot get the exacting analysis done like the USGA can do with their ratings team, but it is certainly better than the aggregate of whoever the hell played that day PDGA system.

Again, good job Tim and DGCR crew, you done a good thing here :thmbup:

 

[chris deitzel]

Moraine had the pars and holes adjusted for over a year before we got it right.

We set out from the start to design our tees to a specific level player. White 900, blue 950, and golds 1000.

We then had players from those skill levels test the holes over and over again.

We then held many tournaments, and event and documented the hole-by-hole scoring averages. If holes were playing more than 0.5 strokes above or below par for their level, then we tweaked the holes to get the correct scoring average.

This took a lot of work, and subtle tweaking. Moving a tee 10 feet here, or a pin 15 feet there. Tightening up a hole, etc etc etc.

Well now after 6+ years we have had 6 PDGA A tier or NT events here, and more than 6 PDGA B-tier events here.

After seeing all of the results, we did our job and designed the course appropriately.

The average rating for a par 66 from white tees (not used much) is 901.2

The average rating for a par 66 from the Blue tees is 952

The average rating for a par 66 from golds is 1000.2

It has nothing to do with us being from PA. We have had hundreds of players from around the world play in our PDGA events.

It goes to show how well the course was designed, and the fact that the people designing it, knew what they were doing and achieved the results that we were looking for.

It took almost 2 years of playing the course to wooden stakes in the ground before we felt comfortable about where the baskets and tees would be installed.

This is why it is so important to have people who know what they are doing designing courses. It's not just a random guess. It is thought out, tweaked, and then results are gathered from players of the appropriate skill level, and then tweaked again, until it is done right.

The rating system can lie at times, but if you have enough solid data, and results from enough different players, they are extremely accurate.

 

[chris deitzel]

It should also be noted that the distances listed for Moraine are most definitely incorrect. Unfortunately they are incorrect on many of the signs, as a lot of the distances are from the original measuring before holes got tweaked. For instance, I believe Hole 5 says 265 from blue, and 268 from gold.

I also know Hole 6 is way off. The hole is probably over 1000 feet. We will be doing new measurements this year, and perhaps have some new signs made? But the distances listed on the tee signs should not be believed in all cases on the course. Which is a problem that we will fix.

Hole 12 is way off on this site also. The long tee is probably about 95 feet farther than the blue.

This is an issue that we will definitely correct this year.

 

[MNcyclone]

This is why it is so important to have people who know what they are doing designing courses. It's not just a random guess. It is thought out, tweaked, and then results are gathered from players of the appropriate skill level, and then tweaked again, until it is done right.

It should also be noted that the distances listed for Moraine are most definitely incorrect. Unfortunately they are incorrect on many of the signs, as a lot of the distances are from the original measuring before holes got tweaked. For instance, I believe Hole 5 says 265 from blue, and 268 from gold.

:\:\:\

OK, I'm done trolling you, Morraine is a nice enough course, I'm sure you are a nice enough guy and yinz guys in Picksburg are, well... I'm sure you're a nice enough guy.

 

[Dave242]

Moraine had the pars and holes adjusted for over a year before we got it right.

We set out from the start to design our tees to a specific level player. White 900, blue 950, and golds 1000.

We then had players from those skill levels test the holes over and over again.

We then held many tournaments, and event and documented the hole-by-hole scoring averages. If holes were playing more than 0.5 strokes above or below par for their level, then we tweaked the holes to get the correct scoring average.

This took a lot of work, and subtle tweaking. Moving a tee 10 feet here, or a pin 15 feet there. Tightening up a hole, etc etc etc.

Well now after 6+ years we have had 6 PDGA A tier or NT events here, and more than 6 PDGA B-tier events here.

After seeing all of the results, we did our job and designed the course appropriately.

The average rating for a par 66 from white tees (not used much) is 901.2

The average rating for a par 66 from the Blue tees is 952

The average rating for a par 66 from golds is 1000.2

It has nothing to do with us being from PA. We have had hundreds of players from around the world play in our PDGA events.

It goes to show how well the course was designed, and the fact that the people designing it, knew what they were doing and achieved the results that we were looking for.

It took almost 2 years of playing the course to wooden stakes in the ground before we felt comfortable about where the baskets and tees would be installed.

This is why it is so important to have people who know what they are doing designing courses. It's not just a random guess. It is thought out, tweaked, and then results are gathered from players of the appropriate skill level, and then tweaked again, until it is done right.

The rating system can lie at times, but if you have enough solid data, and results from enough different players, they are extremely accurate.

Chris - thanks for your detailed explanation and you and your friends' work to very thoughtfully design of the course. I am intrigued by the course and the numbers - hopefully I will get to play it one day. I have family in the Uniontown area....so maybe one day I will find myself driving by that area.

I am curious if my take on the course is correct - that on the Gold layout there are a fair amount of holes that due to fairway shape limit the drive length (an/or the resulting approach length) to under say 275'. I am not talking about heroic shots that filter longer than that....because if we are then we need to average those out with attempts at those shots that failed.

Would you say that great scores on this course are achieved more so by those displaying great accuracy/consistency than those with big D?

 

[chris deitzel]

Moraine is made for the accurate player. there are a lot of shots that force lower throws because of the trees. Though, if you can throw 450+ there are quite a few routes where the big arm can go way over everything, but there is major punishment if they don't make the fairway.

Hole 6 for example, if you throw down the middle, you are looking for a 350 foot controlled line-drive. If you go over the top, you are going to have to throw a giant anhyzer about 450 to get past all of the stuff and land in a good area.

Hole 8, a person who can throw 300 feet from the golds will find themselves with a 300 foot upshot through a 20 foot wide gap. But if you can throw 450 feet with a lot of height, you can hyzer up over the trees and try to place youd drive farther down that gap. But if you don't land in the fairway, expect to take 1 or 2 shots just to get back to the middle.

Hole 10 is a shot a bigarm does have an advantage. They can throw a giant hyzer over the trees and land up near the A-pin for a possible eagle. The rest of us have to thread the needle and make a long upshot sometimes, 300 feet or so.

Hole 12 rewards a big arm, if you can bomb one around the corner and deep into the woods, you have a big advantage over the small arm players.

Hole 15 helps if you have a big arm.


I would say those who can throw 300 - 350 feet accurately have a great chance of scoring at or near par on the course from the golds.

The thing with Moraine is, anytime that you get off the fairway, even if only a few feet, you are most likely left with a tough shot, sometimes requiring you to just pitch back onto the fairway (if you are smart).

 

[HarkeyPuck]

Moraine is made for the accurate player. there are a lot of shots that force lower throws because of the trees. Though, if you can throw 450+ there are quite a few routes where the big arm can go way over everything, but there is major punishment if they don't make the fairway.

Hole 6 for example, if you throw down the middle, you are looking for a 350 foot controlled line-drive. If you go over the top, you are going to have to throw a giant anhyzer about 450 to get past all of the stuff and land in a good area.

Hole 8, a person who can throw 300 feet from the golds will find themselves with a 300 foot upshot through a 20 foot wide gap. But if you can throw 450 feet with a lot of height, you can hyzer up over the trees and try to place youd drive farther down that gap. But if you don't land in the fairway, expect to take 1 or 2 shots just to get back to the middle.

Hole 10 is a shot a bigarm does have an advantage. They can throw a giant hyzer over the trees and land up near the A-pin for a possible eagle. The rest of us have to thread the needle and make a long upshot sometimes, 300 feet or so.

Hole 12 rewards a big arm, if you can bomb one around the corner and deep into the woods, you have a big advantage over the small arm players.

Hole 15 helps if you have a big arm.


I would say those who can throw 300 - 350 feet accurately have a great chance of scoring at or near par on the course from the golds.

The thing with Moraine is, anytime that you get off the fairway, even if only a few feet, you are most likely left with a tough shot, sometimes requiring you to just pitch back onto the fairway (if you are smart).

I can attest to this. Moraine is the most unforgiving course I have played. You need to be on the fairway if you expect to throw par or under.

 

[DiscJunkie]

Checked out Castle Hayne and the SSE is almost dead on, if we compare it with our most recent tourney.

 

[Dave242]

Checked out Castle Hayne and the SSE is almost dead on, if we compare it with our most recent tourney.

I actually went in there and changed it from Moderately Wooded to Heavily Wooded a couple days ago since CH is a course I know that I also know SSA and tournament set-up and length. When I checked SSE it was quite low and then I noticed it was listed as Moderately Wooded (for some reason BigWaveDave had it set to this??) - if that is not a heavily wooded course, I do not know what one is!

I actually thought that since there are several forced lay-ups, SSE would would still be a coupe of throws lower than SSA, but I was wrong.

 

[hiflyer]

So, where the F is this elusive SSE? I just combed through my home course (El Dorado Park, CA) and nowhere did I see the slightest mention of SSE. Only average scores.

 

[mashnut]

Look on the main course page, it's right below the pars, labeled DGCR SSE.

 

[jeverett]

So, where the F is this elusive SSE? I just combed through my home course (El Dorado Park, CA) and nowhere did I see the slightest mention of SSE. Only average scores.

It's right on the course page, underneath the 'par' information..

http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=216

SSE for that course is coming out at 47.9, or about -6 to par.

Edit: Mashnut was quicker..

 

[hiflyer]

A-ha!!!
I need a new comb

 

[KnightDisc]

I think this question was asked earlier, but I didn't see a clear answer...

It seems like the next logical step from SSE would be an "estimated player rating", based on rounds recorded in the scorebook.

Is this in the works?

 

[ERicJ]

Check out Cedar Brook Elementary School. Very short 9-hole course. SSE shows 16.2, which implies a Scratch player would average almost two Aces per round. I don't think we've seen the player that can average even one Ace per nine holes on 100'+ holes (not even Cubby).

So should there be a minimum SSE of 2 strokes/hole on courses with a minimum length?

 

[timg]

Sounds fair to me... but what's the cut off?

 

[ERicJ]

Sounds fair to me... but what's the cut off?

Assuming a wide open hole... give a 1000-rated player nine throws... at what distance would you expect them to average one make/"Ace"...? 60-70' maybe. Anything longer than that and realistically the best you can expect to average is 2 strokes per hole.

So perhaps the cutoff is at average hole length of 70'. But do you really have any courses where the average hole length is less than that? Probably not.


I'm somewhat conflicted about implementing this.

One one hand you have the real world where 1000-rated players are NOT going to average 16.2 at Cedar Brook Elementary. So setting a realistic floor of 18.0 is probably the right thing to do.

On the other hand you have somewhat valuable data in seeing the 16.2 number. It shows you what a 1000-rated player would need to average on that course to maintain their 1000 rating in a field of other players. Basically it tells you that this course is really not suitable for competitive play without serious ratings compression.

 

[New013]

yeah you can see an argument both ways. it is a bit ridiculous to say that a pro should be able to ace at least 1/9 on a short wide open course. i'm not really sure how even the pdga would handle such a situation if a field of pros were to play this course competitively; if they did i would assume it would be the one or two pros that did ace a couple holes that got the 1000 rated round.

you would have to assume that almost every pro in the field, hell even most of the advanced players, would shoot right at -18. if that were to happen it seems the pdga couldn't award a score of -18 a 1000 rating; to many people accomplished it. you would also expect that at least one pro could ace at least one hole.

i don't know enough about everything that goes in to pdga ratings to say but honestly i would think not even -18 would get a 1000 rated round. so for me it makes sense to have it like that, even though it does seem ridiculous.