DGPT: Discraft's Great Lakes Open July 23-25

[nothinbuttree]

My 15 year old son and I (both upper 800 players) both like the two new holes. Really like #5, even without the wood chips. We both missed C2 birdie putts on #5 (both our first ever throws on that hole, it got worse after that), so definitely reachable for many with a pure shot. #6 was a bit tougher for us, but he did par it twice. (He throws farther than me--course most players do).

I think more skill and less luck is involved than the holes they replaced. I like the new #15 too. Had a couple great shots for me that were real fun to throw (no deep rough threat)--that got to the original tee pad. Could be a 5, but no worries--one more hole that I will never birdie there is not a big deal. There are plenty!

BTW, course possibly the toughest I have ever played, with THE worst rough, but I still gave it 4.5 stars. It's just great, that's all.

 

[Nick Pacific]

Not sure there's enough room to lengthen 18 into a legit par 4. Assume tee shots land no further up the fairway... it would just make upshots longer, but the circle would still be quite reachable in 2 shots.

Maybe there's room to move it further back and to the right, beyond the cul de sac? To be honest, I've never really payed attention to what's over there.
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I think there is all sorts of room back there to the right of the cul de sac. And I think making the upshots longer is actually the point for making it a more legit FPO par 4. As it stands now, 18 is playing as a very soft par 4 for the ladies, nobody is getting the 2 on it. Might as well call it that because that's the reality on the field. Paige has the longest backhand turnover and Kristin has the longest forehand in FPO and neither of them all weekend came even close to getting the 2. Even for the men it takes longest forehand chuckers we have like Eagle to even get up there and they're still having to hit circle 2 putts for the 2.

Mind you the men's pin would stay where it is. That is definitely one hole that has stood the test of time for MPO and if it's a tough left to right shot for even Eagle to get, I'd assume it's going to continue to play tough for years to come.

 

[Nick Pacific]

!

BTW, course possibly the toughest I have ever played, with THE worst rough, but I still gave it 4.5 stars. It's just great, that's all.

Sheesh, the rough now is nowhere near as bad as it was 10 years ago, not even close, nonetheless 20 years ago when it went into the ground. They've cleaned up so much.

Yeah it's been lengthened considerably, but the rough has been cleaned up, the teepads are now cement and the basket upgrades make a difference for sure.

That, and when they played worlds there in 2000, the fastest discs they had were fairway drivers. Imagine relying on a teebird as your main driver to get you up that hill on #2, throwing off a rubber teepad and praying your putt stuck on those old chainstar baskets.

 

[biscoe]

Ladies above the cash line got 18 3's and 1 4 on Hole 18 in Rd 3.

Hole could certainly stand to be either shorter or longer.

 

[nothinbuttree]

Sheesh, the rough now is nowhere near as bad as it was 10 years ago, not even close, nonetheless 20 years ago when it went into the ground. They've cleaned up so much.

Yeah it's been lengthened considerably, but the rough has been cleaned up, the teepads are now cement and the basket upgrades make a difference for sure.

That, and when they played worlds there in 2000, the fastest discs they had were fairway drivers. Imagine relying on a teebird as your main driver to get you up that hill on #2, throwing off a rubber teepad and praying your putt stuck on those old chainstar baskets.

Agreed! I love the new teepads. Only been playing it last 2 years, so I am probably spoiled. With my arm speed, the fastest discs might as well be fairway drivers. . I usually get 5's on #2. That used to be par. Thanks Paul...

 

[Steve West]

Ladies above the cash line got 18 3's and 1 4 on Hole 18 in Rd 3.

Hole could certainly stand to be either shorter or longer.

There is work to be done on a lot of holes to give FPO the same kind of experience as MPO.

These charts show the distribution of scores relative to par for an expert MPO and FPO player.

The FPO chart is messier, indicating some pars were too high, while at the same time, the FPO had to endure more over-par scores.

 

[ThrowBot]

Ladies above the cash line got 18 3's and 1 4 on Hole 18 in Rd 3.

Hole could certainly stand to be either shorter or longer.

That is a blatantly horrible argument. By using "Ladies above the cash line" you are committing a selection bias of specifically the top performing players in the field. The players who were able to execute and -- almost uniformly -- match the best score on that hole.

Compare that to ladies below the cash line: 10 took threes, 6 took fours, and 2 took fives. So the players not performing well enough to earn cash were often taking damage on that hole, and they averaged a half throw worse than the best scores on the hole.

And yet, there were no obscene blowup scores on the hole. No extra harsh punishment. But the hole was somewhat of a score separator, and that score separation which did occur closely mirrored the overall performance in the tournament. No flukes. Just a fair challenge that the top competitors were able to accomplish in 3 throws.

 

[biscoe]

That is a blatantly horrible argument. By using "Ladies above the cash line" you are committing a selection bias of specifically the top performing players in the field. The players who were able to execute and -- almost uniformly -- match the best score on that hole.

Compare that to ladies below the cash line: 10 took threes, 6 took fours, and 2 took fives. So the players not performing well enough to earn cash were often taking damage on that hole, and they averaged a half throw worse than the best scores on the hole.

And yet, there were no obscene blowup scores on the hole. No extra harsh punishment. But the hole was somewhat of a score separator, and that score separation which did occur closely mirrored the overall performance in the tournament. No flukes. Just a fair challenge that the top competitors were able to accomplish in 3 throws.

It is an Elite event- general agreement regarding these events is that FPO par should fall around 930. The cash line was 920-ish. In general in these events in FPO you find several players near the bottom who quite frankly do not belong at that level of competition. Additionally, given the mission of DGPT, the need for scoring separation should be skewed towards separation among the top players- they are the ones people are there to watch.

Ideally on a par 3 hole appropriately designed for 930 players there should be at least a few birdies to be had from the top ladies. An across the board breakdown of 28 3's, 7 4's and 2 5's does not imo support your definition of this hole as a score separator but indicates the exact same thing I stated prior- it needs to be either shorter or longer. Double the number of 4's and you have a much better hole.

 

[Steve West]

The scoring distribution at 930 rated is 66%/26%/8% (3/4/5). That's not bad, with a rule of thumb that there should be no more than 66% of any one score.

Yes, more 4s would be better - but not much. The percentage of 4s is already near the single-score maximum information value of 1/e = 37%. Better yet would be more 5s or any 2s.

The lack of birdies does not really mean anything as far as stand-alone scoring separation goes. If it was 26%/66%/8% it would perform the same.

When part of a course, a hole with no birdies has the potential to so some separating which is different than all other holes. So, it could actually have a synergistic effect.

 

[Central Scrutinizer]

Sheesh, the rough now is nowhere near as bad as it was 10 years ago, not even close, nonetheless 20 years ago when it went into the ground. They've cleaned up so much.

Yeah it's been lengthened considerably, but the rough has been cleaned up, the teepads are now cement and the basket upgrades make a difference for sure.

That, and when they played worlds there in 2000, the fastest discs they had were fairway drivers. Imagine relying on a teebird as your main driver to get you up that hill on #2, throwing off a rubber teepad and praying your putt stuck on those old chainstar baskets.

Yep, I played in the PAW 2000 event there where it rained buckets and my beloved tacky SE Teebird even slipped out of my hand. My place in the standings dropped like a lead zeppelin!!

 

[ru4por]

Yep, I played in the PAW 2000 event there where it rained buckets and my beloved tacky SE Teebird even slipped out of my hand. My place in the standings dropped like a lead zeppelin!!

Nobody's fault but........................................yours.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

Dealing with the rough on Toboggan... the battle of evermore.

 

[ejvogie]

Plenty of good times, bad times to be had on that course

 

[Central Scrutinizer]

Nobody's fault but........................................yours.

I was actually quoting Keith Moon there, and that was the "lead" he was referring to...

Really want to finally get to meet you guys in person and throw! One of these days. Be sure to give a shout if you're ever on my side of the state.

 

[nothinbuttree]

I was actually quoting Keith Moon there, and that was the "lead" he was referring to...

Dang, now we're all dazed and confused...