[Question] Disc flight rating

[Sorg67]

Is there a way to estimate the flight rating for various discs at different speeds?

For example a Saint is 9 6 -1 2

So could it be similar to 8 6 0 3?

Or is the fade the fade since it is at the slower end so it might be more like 8 6 0 2?

Or is it just not designed to function at all at less than 9 speed?

And would you use lighter weight if you have trouble achieving the speed necessary to produce the flight characteristics?

I am currently planning to focus on a 168 g Saint (9 6 -1 2).

But I am wonder if my 156 g Jade would be a better choice for me (9 6 -2 2)

I abandoned the Jade because it tended to turnover too much. I thought I was developing better technique and more power - too much for Jade. But a good throw for me is anything over 250 ft. 300 ft is about my max but I do not hit that too often.

I used a 174 g River (7, 7, -1,1) for a while and got a few 300 ft throws with that. But I had a hard time getting it to fade controlably and sometimes it turned over into a roller when I tried to throw it hard.

I am sure some (okay probably all) of this is due to improper technique. I think I produce some anhyzer on my follow through. I am working on flat throws with flat follow through. But often when I follow through, I turn it into the ground.

Anyway, I digress. Not looking for technique advice. I want to figure that out for myself. Looking to understanding the relationship between speed and turn better.

Also, I kind of like the feel of that wide rims you find on the faster discs. Are there any discs with wide rims but slower speeds? Or are those mutually exclusive?

 

[DiscGolfChris]

From my understanding the high speed turn rating is all relative to speed so throwing at the speed listed is the recommended way to achieve the listed turn. With more power the initial high speed turn may be greater but no matter how hard you throw the disc originally, its speed will always approach zero toward the end and as it does so it should revert to the estimated low speed fade. At that point the shape and strength of the fade is often more related to angle of the disc than it is to other factors (obviously wind will have other effects).

Since the fade is the last part of the flight it is also affected by more variables that the turn at the beginning of the flight so to achieve a consistent fade you typically need to find a way to have a more consistent flight at the beginning. Also, the more overstable a fade is, the more likely it is to overcome the additional variables so more stable discs have a tenancy to be more consistent. But that consistency is just one advantage, there are also disadvantages that you should weigh against.

 

[SD86]

Is there a way to estimate the flight rating for various discs at different speeds?

And would you use lighter weight if you have trouble achieving the speed necessary to produce the flight characteristics?

I am sure some (okay probably all) of this is due to improper technique. I think I produce some anhyzer on my follow through. I am working on flat throws with flat follow through. But often when I follow through, I turn it into the ground.

Anyway, I digress. Not looking for technique advice. I want to figure that out for myself. Looking to understanding the relationship between speed and turn better.

Also, I kind of like the feel of that wide rims you find on the faster discs. Are there any discs with wide rims but slower speeds? Or are those mutually exclusive?

First, the flight numbers are relative and somewhat subjective. IMHO they're decent for making disc comparisons as well as knowing what the disc will do, but they're not perfect nor are they standardized.

Second, it sounds to me like you're developing better form and more speed on your discs; ergo, you're turning the understable ones more. You might move to the next-more-stable disc in that speed range and find your new happy medium.

Third, for longer distances, I am finding that lighter weights will help, but you lose a huge amount of control. And sometimes ligher weights mean more understability and the discs get flippy.

Last, the wide rims are part of what gives a disc its speed designation... so you're likely not going to find lower speed discs with very wide rims like the Boss. But you might try getting a Vulcan (understable) and not throwing it at full power and see if it works for you....

 

[Sorg67]

But you might try getting a Vulcan (understable) and not throwing it at full power and see if it works for you....

Yes, that is what I was thinking. Vulcan is 13 5 -4 2. Let's say I got that in a light weight and threw it at 9 speed, would it behave more like 9 5 -1 2?

Or would it just not perform since I am trying to make it do something it is not designed to do?

It seems more speed creates less stability. So what is the difference between a high speed understable disc and a low speed stable disc?

Maybe I will give the Vulcan a try and see if I can figure it out for myself.

 

[SD86]

Yes, that is what I was thinking. Vulcan is 13 5 -4 2. Let's say I got that in a light weight and threw it at 9 speed, would it behave more like 9 5 -1 2?
Or would it just not perform since I am trying to make it do something it is not designed to do?
It seems more speed creates less stability. So what is the difference between a high speed understable disc and a low speed stable disc?
Maybe I will give the Vulcan a try and see if I can figure it out for myself.

Here's the thing: you don't throw at "Speed 9"... you throw at 100% of your power, 80% of your power, 50% of your power, etc. What will make the Vulcan work the way you want is going to be dependent on you, how you throw, etc. Obviously, you'll have to work with it to see what it does.

Also, I would recommend against getting a lighter weight disc. Get what is in your comfort zone.

If you watch the videos from https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCVcF5G-LKpw1sku5HLsVaJw "Best Disc Golf Discs" on Youtube, you'll get more answers to your questions about differences in discs, etc.

 

[Karl]

1 post of well thought out questions and 3 posts of 'stay on topic' good answers! Let's keep it going. I'll add that I agree with most everything said and will add that you may not get a 5 Vulcan glide (maybe a little less) due to a bit of a HS driver's 'glide' may be attributed to the extra lift it gets from having a large wing...and at slower speeds it won't come into effect as much.
Karl

 

[Sorg67]

Great you tube video on speed. Thanks.

Seems to say that the fundamental nature of wide rim is high speed and therefore there are no wide rim slower speed discs. Although they mention a manufacturer that is using different plastic density to better control the distribution of the weight. They are trying to position it more to the outside, but it would seem that you could also use the high density plastic to move the weight inside.

For somebody who does not throw fast like me but who would like a more aerodynamic disc with a wider rim it would seem that a disc with the shape of a fast disc but with the lower moment of inertia (weight toward the center) of a slow disc - to get it to spin with less snap might work well.

Make sense?

 

[SD86]

Great you tube video on speed. Thanks.

Seems to say that the fundamental nature of wide rim is high speed and therefore there are no wide rim slower speed discs. Although they mention a manufacturer that is using different plastic density to better control the distribution of the weight. They are trying to position it more to the outside, but it would seem that you could also use the high density plastic to move the weight inside.

For somebody who does not throw fast like me but who would like a more aerodynamic disc with a wider rim it would seem that a disc with the shape of a fast disc but with the lower moment of inertia (weight toward the center) of a slow disc - to get it to spin with less snap might work well.

Make sense?

I haven't worked out the physics, but the weight has to be towards the outside for better stable-ness (as opposed to the disc golf term of stability) and for the disc to fly well.

A second point is that if you don't throw with *snap* (by that I don't mean raw power nor speed, but the *snap* to get the disc spinning), then the disc is simply not going to perform, and it will start fading right out of your hand then crash and burn. A disc flies because it is presenting a wing to the atmosphere, and the faster it rotates and keeps that wing to the air, the better it flies.

Smarter guys have already figured all this out, so don't overthink it, just enjoy the videos and go find the discs that work for you...

 

[Sorg67]

Over-thinking could be the tag line for my life.... hahaha.....

I am trying to keep the game simple fun and feel oriented. I am trying to keep only a few discs in regular usage that I am comfortable with.

But I enjoy getting a new disc and experimenting with it. And I enjoy the process of understanding the physics of what is going on. Don't want to get a lot of mechanical thoughts in my head.

Cool that you can pick up a new driver for $15, go out to a field and check it out. Much better than shelling out $400 for a ball golf driver and spending $20 at a driving range to check it out.

Disc golf has ball golf beat in every way imaginable in my book....

But back to the thread topic. I have a 7 speed River with -1 turn and a 9 speed Saint with -1 turn. The River is harder for me to throw hard. When I do, I tend to turn in right into the ground. Doubt I am throwing the River too fast. Probably poor technique.

Actually, come to think of it. I have had some long throws with my River that have gone the wrong way when I have tried to hyzer but it has turned over on me. I wonder if that is something I could work into a longer distance driving technique.... hmmmmm.......

Could these throws be accidental hyzer flips?

 

[ThomasOrion]

It most definitely is not that simple to take a High speed disc, and 'Tone it down' to get those other respective flight numbers. There are many different speeds of discs, stabilities of discs, and styles/designs for a reason. Otherwise we'd all be throwing destroyers on every throw and just changing the power we give it.

Just cover the bases:

Understable, Stable, Overstable

and in Putter/Approach, Midrange, Fairway, and Distance Drivers....a solid bag for any level of competition is usually around 12 discs....COMPLETELY not neccessary, you can be more casual and toss just a few discs.

But really to give yourself the ability to hit a better line, to finish with the disc landing closer to the pin. US, S, OS discs in at least a few speed ranges.

 

[Toro71]

^sounds more technique related. Hyzer angles have always been trickier for me personally. One thing is, you have to make sure you follow through on that hyzer plane. Flattening out through the hit on a hyzer throw will kind of pop the disc out of the angle. I do this sometimes when I'm 'overthrowing.'

I think (others may have more insight) that Rivers can vary a good bit in stability from run to run. There are pretty stable ones out there, and more flippy ones. You could be hyzer-flipping it.

 

[Snap-it]

Another one of these flight numbers threads?

 

[Snap-it]

^sounds more technique related. Hyzer angles have always been trickier for me personally. One thing is, you have to make sure you follow through on that hyzer plane. Flattening out through the hit on a hyzer throw will kind of pop the disc out of the angle. I do this sometimes when I'm 'overthrowing.'

I think (others may have more insight) that Rivers can vary a good bit in stability from run to run. There are pretty stable ones out there, and more flippy ones. You could be hyzer-flipping it.

Watch out for wrist roll too...same result.

 

[Sorg67]

It most definitely is not that simple to take a High speed disc, and 'Tone it down' to get those other respective flight numbers. There are many different speeds of discs, stabilities of discs, and styles/designs for a reason. Otherwise we'd all be throwing destroyers on every throw and just changing the power we give it.

Yes, that makes sense. I guess I am trying to understand the difference between an understable high speed disc and an over-stable low speed disc.

It is my understanding that in general discs tend to behave more stably at slower speeds and less stably at higher speed. So if you have a 9 speed disc, it would be a little less stable than a 10 speed disc and a little more stable than an 8 speed disc, all else being equal. So if I was looking for more stability, I could choose a higher speed disc or I could choose a more stable disc.

I am trying to get a better sense how the speed and stability ratings work together. Perhaps mostly from an academic perspective just because I like to understand how things work. But also from a disc selection standpoint. To better understand how to select a disc that might give me better results.

And when a disc behaves differently than I expect, to better understand what is causing it to behave the way it does.

For example, I am thinking I might want to use a higher speed disc into the wind and a slower speed disc with the wind. I have generally thought of using heavier, more stable disc into the wind, but maybe higher speed discs make more sense. Or maybe it is just shades of grey. Either could work. But I am guessing they would work a little differently. Otherwise why split the categories out.

And maybe there is an argument for not splitting them out. I guess this is an Innova concept that has been widely adopted, but Discraft seems to look at it more simply.

This is one of the interesting elements of the game that make it so captivating for me.

 

[ClydesdaleDan]

My understanding is that speed and stability are related and can influence eachother but it is not a simple correlation where one can substitute directly for the other. All the flightnumbers are interrelated in a similiar fashion, for example; discs with more turn will tend to have less fade, but it is still possible for two discs with the same turn to have vastly different fades. When it comes down to it, flight numbers are an attempt to describe non-scientific characterists of the discs flight in a way that is relevent to us as disc golfers.
Speed is just the aerodynamic profile of the disc. Fast discs are shallow, have wide rims, low air resistance, and only produce lift efficiently at high speeds. Slow discs are deep, have narrow rims, high air resistance, and produce lift even at very low speeds.
Glide is the most vague number and is greatly influenced by all other numbers. Discs with high glide tend to stay in the air longer.
Turn describes how many imaginary units of distance the disc travels to the right(rhbh) when thrown at an undisclosed preassumed speed with clean form.
Fade describes the leftward movement at the end of the flight in the same way as the turn.
Sorry for the rant, hope it helps.

 

[DiscDraft]

My understanding is that speed and stability are related and can influence eachother but it is not a simple correlation where one can substitute directly for the other.

I agree with this. Some discs power down better than others so I don't think you'll be able to find a perfect formula. I guess you can use that idea to describe to someone who throws at a certain speed how a disc will fly for them.

 

[Ebon Betta]

From an academic standpoint. I would suggest picking any three discs with the same glide,turn and fade. and a different speed say 3,7,11.
This gives them enough difference in the speed dept to see how each acts and try to throw them to achieve the same flight style.
You will quickly see how much less power you need on the very low speed disc to get the right flight path that the charts show. And how much more power those higher speed discs need to fly like their intended flight pattern.
I am relatively new and while much of this is new to me I am very good at diagnosing how things work. Especially in flying environments. Somebody else might know, but someplace online I was looking at a site that allowed You to enter a disc name by selection and it plotted the fight path at selected speeds..showing how i would turn left very fast to making the flight path at the intended speed.
This is a jpg of some discs I was looking at ad how it showed the various paths for the discs

 

[hugheshilton]

Fast discs are shallow, have wide rims, low air resistance, and only produce lift efficiently at high speeds.

I think this is a crucial point in this discussion. Say you take an understable speed 13 driver like a Vulcan and throw it at 35 mph (say this is how fast you might throw for a 200 ft shot, I'm just making up the numbers here). It's not necessarily going to act the same way as an overstable putter/mid like a Rhyno thrown at the same speed. The Vulcan is going to be much less reliable at this speed and is probably going start fading right out of your hand and crash into the ground sharply rather than flying straight and then having a smooth, controlled fade like the Rhyno.

There are also discs that can handle being powered up/down better than others depending on their shape and aerodynamic properties. I could throw a Teebird and a Destroyer with the same amount of power and I would get very similar flights with the Teebird going 350 feet and the Destroyer going 390 feet. I think that's 1 reason those molds are very popular. However, I think that, per my example above, it's important to understand that this really only works up to a point, and understable high speed discs don't, in my experience, power down very well or very controllably.

One resource that might also help you is the MVP flight charts, which show flight paths for their discs based on the power level of the throw, which is a nice way to see what is likely to happen as you power down a discs. http://mvpdiscsports.com/media/

 

[DiscDraft]

Ebon

I think the website you thumb-nailed uses a linear regression for the flight paths which is probably a decently accurate representation, but it certainly does not hold true for every disc. As dan and hughes mentioned, very wide rimmed discs do not show a linear regression in their flight paths with respect to speed and are probably the best example of this. These discs do not power down well, and a linear regression would show a longer/better flight path than the reality.

On the other hand, discs like a PD power down very well and would beat out a linear regression with respect to speed. In this case the actual flight path with respect to speed would be straighter (further/better) than a linear regression would show.

 

[slowplastic]

I do have to say what you didn't want to talk about...at 250-300' with all drivers, you are strong arming. If you want to see the different flight patterns in action, the best advice I can give is to work on form to get to the "snap" in your throw and get out to 330-350. At this point the discs will fly with more HSS and less LSS and the the subtle differences between molds will be much more apparent. Discs that are flying too slow will "wake up" for you and discs you were rolling over will hyzer flip straighter.