Disc golf sidearm vs Baseball sidearm

[eegor]

Mark Ellis keeps his elbow away from his body when throwing. He's a lot better than I am... and he's older. Check this out... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOECjLjhiTI

 

[craftsman]

I see both on the regular. Two of the most known locals (mark and geoff) also happen to be well known fh throwers with non traditional styles.

Though i can currently only throw comets,magnets, wasps, challengers, zones, and drones successfully fh, i view fh just as i do bh.

Elbow in is like bent elbow, the easiest way to teach and what seems to be where the majority of players will find sucess.
Elbow out the alt style. You will find a handfull of players getting superb results (largly due imo to whats happening at the last sec of the throw-same as bh) and the majority with nasty looking throws.

Fully hitting it is fully hitting it reguardless how you get there.

 

[FierceTable]

I don't have much to offer regarding mechanics, but when I was a forehand only player I threw successfully with the elbow-out (Teebirds to 370' on straight lines and Wraiths to just over 400'). I never had elbow problems when I played only one round in a day, but I noticed pain if I played more than that. I pretty much gave up forehand to learn backhand and upon coming back to forehand I tried learning the elbow-in style. With that method I got noticeably less distance because I couldn't figure out how to reachback as far while still coming through elbow-in, and in trying to generate the same amount of snap as elbow-out I couldn't keep from pulling the disc left of my target unless I allow the disc to slip out early which loses distance.

 

[sidewinder22]

http://www.scottstokely.com/ask_scott.htm
Q: I have been playing Disc Golf for about for about 16 years, and I have always wanted to learn side arm. This Winter I decided to work on this part of my golf game and I have been doing alright. I was out playing last week with a friend that has a great sidearm, and during a couple of my sidearm attempts he told my that I Rex-ed my shot. I am not sure what this means and what I would do to fix this problem? I figure that it is a problem because my shot's where this term came up did not turn out good.

A: Rexing refers to a sidearm throw where the elbow was kept too close to the body. I call it that because the thrower looks like a T-Rex with its short arms dangling in front.

The reason most players do this is that many articles have been written that tell the player to keep their arms close to the body during a sidearm. This is the biggest technique misconception in disc golf.

The only time your elbow will be close to your body on a sidearm will be when you throw a hyzer shot (it is also helpful when trying to increase the spin to speed ratio, but this is far more relevant to throwing non golf discs like those used for Ultimate or Freestyle). This would be when a right handed thrower angles a sidearm to leave their hand already turning right. Rather than thinking of keeping your elbow close to your body, focus on leading with the elbow.

I go into great detail for throwing this shot on the soon to be released sidearm video. Like most of these descriptions, a video is worth a thousand words.

 

[Triflusal]

thanks. scott stokely is the man

 

[sloppydisc]

Bingo. Just like a sidearm pitcher in baseball. They may extend their arm and elbow more, but the key is that they lead with the elbow. Now if I could just do it, I'd be all set.

 

[climbingkid]

i got the same tip to keep my elbow in but out of habit i keep it out so i think id throw it more of a baseball sidearm. results are pretty consistent for me and i wouldnt want to change to much to fast.

 

[Razz]

This is my first post.

I've been playing on and off for a fair amount of time and typically relying on a fair (320-350' low line drive/no fade) RHFH shot to get me off the tee box. My home course is a heavily wooded "hit your line" course where shots that are 15'+ high are swiftly punished. As per some DGCR threads I've actually started seasons with only BH drives (which usually ends when I play somewhere more challenging requiring an obvious FH shot and I remember how much I love throwing the sidearm.) And I would have to say that my backhand has improved significantly from the driving practice.

Back on point I would have to lean on the release angle playing a significant part in the "elbow in" sidearm technique.
Think of most discs that you can easily overpower and the release angles required for a nice hyzer shot (FH or BH.) They need to be released at an angle more than 10 degrees below level (your hand goes over the disc and pushes outward) to keep a straight powerful low shot. This is very different from tossing a baseball sidearm where you want an upward release that "breaks" across the plate (causing your hand to slide under the release.)

The stress that would be placed on your wrist with an arm extended hard RHFH hyzer shot seems pretty extreme with your wrist "rolling over and pushing" towards where you are attempting to place your shot. As opposed to your wrist rolling under on a BASEBALL sidearm fastball or an "elbow in" RHFH shot where a lot of that energy is probably released in the tension between your shoulder/elbow as it interacts while you move your elbow forward in a similar throw.

I know you don't care how I "personally feel' about this shot but I tend to prefer a 60-90 degree angle between my ribcage and upper arm with my upper arm release point on my drives* and longer approaches** staying around the 10-40 degrees off from straight down. Strong early turning hyzers mess with the comfort zone I mentioned above so I usually opt for a hard anhyzer backhand that will float if I have the room.

* Probably closer to 90 degrees (more isolation)
** All based on how much distance and fade/turn are required.

On a side note I would have to say that this is quite an interesting thread topic.

~Nick

 

[Jax11]

Another large difference between Side-arm pitchers and a side-arm in disc golf is wrist movement at the end. A lot of good side-arm pitchers roll their wrist over, this causes the ball to tail in on a right handed hitter. This fact combined with angle of trajectory is what makes some side-arm pitchers so successful.

I think it goes without saying that rolling your wrist over on a disc golf forehand is not good. My bro was a straight up side-arm pitcher and it took him a long while to work out a clean forehand.

I don't see myself on tape much, but I believer I throw with my arm extended away from my body on my drives. I will admit I try to lock my arm down as much as possible if I am throwing something slower like a Buzz or putter. So in that sense keeping the elbow in helps me. Otherwise I'd say let 'er fly wide.

 

[sidewinder22]

Another large difference between Side-arm pitchers and a side-arm in disc golf is wrist movement at the end. A lot of good side-arm pitchers roll their wrist over, this causes the ball to tail in on a right handed hitter. This fact combined with angle of trajectory is what makes some side-arm pitchers so successful.

I think it goes without saying that rolling your wrist over on a disc golf forehand is not good. My bro was a straight up side-arm pitcher and it took him a long while to work out a clean forehand.

I don't see myself on tape much, but I believer I throw with my arm extended away from my body on my drives. I will admit I try to lock my arm down as much as possible if I am throwing something slower like a Buzz or putter. So in that sense keeping the elbow in helps me. Otherwise I'd say let 'er fly wide.

If you are talking 3/4 to parallel sidearm that maybe different, but I don't agree with wrist roll over on a submarine pitch. That's not a powerful motion and rough on the elbow akin to an overhand slider. A submarine pitch doesn't need much wrist breaking, if anything there's some roll under which makes it drop back down from the natural rising delivery. The more underhanded delivery adds more natural movement on a baseball without wrist/forearm rotations.

 

[Hampstead]

Very interesting topic. I was a sidearm pitcher and am an exclusive RHFH thrower. I've never really looked at my release, but am pretty sure I extend my elbow. I tried to learn LHFH and totally felt like I "Rex-ed" it. I've been trying to extend my left elbow but it doesn't want to cooperate.

 

[patdb23]

Think of most discs that you can easily overpower and the release angles required for a nice hyzer shot (FH or BH.) They need to be released at an angle more than 10 degrees below level (your hand goes over the disc and pushes outward) to keep a straight powerful low shot. This is very different from tossing a baseball sidearm where you want an upward release that "breaks" across the plate (causing your hand to slide under the release.)

The stress that would be placed on your wrist with an arm extended hard RHFH hyzer shot seems pretty extreme with your wrist "rolling over and pushing" towards where you are attempting to place your shot. As opposed to your wrist rolling under on a BASEBALL sidearm fastball or an "elbow in" RHFH shot where a lot of that energy is probably released in the tension between your shoulder/elbow as it interacts while you move your elbow forward in a similar throw.
~Nick

The sidearm hyzer shot can be difficult to control starting your arm low and lifting it high coming over the shoulder. I noticed a problem I had which was a tendency to not extend over the shoulder on follow through and I would compensate by incidentally rolling over my wrist. This would cause my disc to come out flat or flip over.

I found out what I was doing wrong. As my arm started to cross in front of my body prior to release I locked my hips. This prevented a smooth fluid motion from start to fnish of the throw. So I started to make sure I swung my inner hip into the throw when my arm came across my body which allowed a smoother throw. Now sidearm hyzer shots where I am releasing 45 degrees or more are much easier to throw and come out clean.

 

[Jtrain]

I noticed that to. I played for about 5 years from 3rd grade-8th grade then quit about 2 years later I was playing my first time of disc golf I was like I knew for some reason I would be a sidearm disc golfer and not regretting it I throw it pretty much the same way I use to throw sidearm in baseball need to get away from that keep it consistent and get my elbow closed probably work on that tomorrow. I would say it is somewhat comparable as you want to keep it even you throw it at.

 

[digital]

because a baseball travels quickly for only 60 or so feet, the timing of the release is different. it needs to move slightly downward toward its target and the most power for this pitch is achieved with a fully extended arm at release. the follow through is more across the body with the arm and wrist moving slightly downward with the hand turning over. the stance is more neutral to closed.

with a disc golf sidearm, the wrist position is different. the wrist is somewhat cocked back with the palm facing slightly upward to make the disc flat for the release. unlike a pitch in baseball, the disc wants to be in the air for awhile. the stance is also a bit open. the elbow stays close to the body to create an angle between the forearm and bicep, the best way to get power and accuracy. the arm fully extends for a disc golf sidearm after the disc has been released. try to "snap" your wrist on the release while keeping your palm up. more pop and less arm than a baseball sidearm pitch.

this is why the comparison to the baseball swing is more realistic. the stance is more open to the target in a batting stance than a pitching stance. the wrist and arm also have more angle at impact (or the point of release for a disc golf sidearm). find a picture of a bat making contact with a ball at a decent angle, photoshop the bat out, and put a disc in that person's top hand on the bat. the full extension of the arm in a disc golf sidearm comes after the release, just like after the hit in baseball. the secret is keeping the elbow close and not flipping your wrist. don't close your body. yada yada yada. wordy wordy wordy.

 

[McFer]

If I had to compare a FH to any technique in any other sport, it would be a topspin forehand with a western grip in tennis. The arm angle, the wrist position and the way the torso clears out so the arm can come around is almost identical.

Applying that to a FH, in tennis if you're after control, you keep the elbow tucked in near your waist. If you're going for power, you use a bit more extension.

Another thing is, they've done studies in tennis and the "loop" some folks do before hitting a forehand adds no arm speed to the shot, it's superfluous. I've found that this is the same in DG, those big swooping motions before the execution of the forehand add nothing in terms of physics. If it adds comfort, I guess it's fine.

 

[sidewinder22]

because a baseball travels quickly for only 60 or so feet, the timing of the release is different. it needs to move slightly downward toward its target and the most power for this pitch is achieved with a fully extended arm at release. the follow through is more across the body with the arm and wrist moving slightly downward with the hand turning over. the stance is more neutral to closed.

with a disc golf sidearm, the wrist position is different. the wrist is somewhat cocked back with the palm facing slightly upward to make the disc flat for the release. unlike a pitch in baseball, the disc wants to be in the air for awhile. the stance is also a bit open. the elbow stays close to the body to create an angle between the forearm and bicep, the best way to get power and accuracy. the arm fully extends for a disc golf sidearm after the disc has been released. try to "snap" your wrist on the release while keeping your palm up. more pop and less arm than a baseball sidearm pitch.

this is why the comparison to the baseball swing is more realistic. the stance is more open to the target in a batting stance than a pitching stance. the wrist and arm also have more angle at impact (or the point of release for a disc golf sidearm). find a picture of a bat making contact with a ball at a decent angle, photoshop the bat out, and put a disc in that person's top hand on the bat. the full extension of the arm in a disc golf sidearm comes after the release, just like after the hit in baseball. the secret is keeping the elbow close and not flipping your wrist. don't close your body. yada yada yada. wordy wordy wordy.

Almost none of this applies to a submarine pitch.

 

[digital]

i got chicken pox in first grade...my baseball career was cut drastically short. but i can throw a sidearm.

 

[sidewinder22]

i got chicken pox in first grade...my baseball career was cut drastically short. but i can throw a sidearm.

So where is this downward throwing motion or rolling wrist over movement from the release on a submarine?

 

[JoshEpoo]

Man, that's a weird delivery. Would be nice to have that kind of a range of motion...

 

[scunham]

I'd lick to see him a throw a disc