[Discraft] Discraft more consistant than Innova

[bikedoctor]

During a recent tournament a guy on my card had only discraft in his bag. When I asked why he said Discraft molds are more consistant than Innova. So when he loses his Discraft discs he is confident he can buy the exact disc given the same plastic and weight. He said the disc would feel the same and have the same flight characteristics which is not always true with Innova.

I know Innova will change their molds and recycle the disc name (see Roc thread) but a Champ Beast last year is the same Champ Beast this year, weights and plastic being the same, right?

 

[PhattD]

The claim is that discraft has tighter quality control procedures. In other words they do a better job of making sure that poorly made discs get shredded instead of sold. No manufacturing process is perfect. So there are always variations in the dimensions of he discs coming off the line. So to answer your question no it isn't the same. As a matter of fact a 167 gr champ beast today isn't the same as a 167 champ beast tomorrow. The same is true of Discraft discs the only question is which company has more variance. I don't pretend to know if the claim is true just trying to explain it.

 

[Three Putt]

Here is the thing...just a guess, since sales figures are not released from any of the companies, but the general estimate is that Innova holds 80% of the disc golf market, and Discraft around 10%. So Innova discs have a lot more runs and a lot more chance for there to be a variation than Discraft. So Discraft might have better quality control, or quality control might just be easier when you only have to make one disc for every 8 your competitor has to make.

 

[WillA]

I have had great variation in the Surges I have gotten from Discraft.

 

[edge3281]

Here is the thing...just a guess, since sales figures are not released from any of the companies, but the general estimate is that Innova holds 80% of the disc golf market, and Discraft around 10%. So Innova discs have a lot more runs and a lot more chance for there to be a variation than Discraft. So Discraft might have better quality control, or quality control might just be easier when you only have to make one disc for every 8 your competitor has to make.

I wonder what the breakdown of makes are for the disc organizer on this site. I know that wouldn't be very scientific but it would be interesting to see the numbers.

 

[Aaron D'Angelo]

I use Innova, it just seems more prevalent and available. ( I got a starter set at Dick's Sporting goods.) I have read somewhere that they have been around a lot longer so that would make sense, as well as there vast market share. I really am liking what I am seeing coming from Discraft though, with the Ace Races and loads of instructional vids.

 

[Jungle Tim]

Disc Qualities and Their Effects On Flight

Here is the thing...just a guess, since sales figures are not released from any of the companies, but the general estimate is that Innova holds 80% of the disc golf market, and Discraft around 10%. So Innova discs have a lot more runs and a lot more chance for there to be a variation than Discraft. So Discraft might have better quality control, or quality control might just be easier when you only have to make one disc for every 8 your competitor has to make.

A good mould (made from good steel not the disc) should last a minimum of 100,000 plus cycles. This is the case for Discrafts UltraStar for sure. The Golf moulds might be Aluminimum as the numbers are smaller which is cheaper but has much less longevity. Eitherway Discraft Innova are in the same boat.

The main difference as you have previously mentioned Three Putt is the plastics and the mix of plastics (cyclone x vs z shrinkage), if the plastics are mixed prior to injection by hand, as is suspected, then thats where the error is. More runs more chance for error.

Blake T covers the differences in plastics really well over at dgreview.

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/dgr/resources/articles/discqualities.shtml

I highly recomend this artical, particularly section v.

 

[JR Stengele]

Great info, thanks.

 

[tomschillin]

i was wondering why it is that people have different preferences/biases as to disc companies. As for me, I've got all kinds of brands, except millenium, not a big fan of their plastics, too slick for my taste...i never really understood why somebody says, "Oh, I only throw Innova" or "I only throw Discraft" or "I only throw Ching"...i've never heard anybody say that last one, but i do hear the Innova or Discraft one, just seems to me that their limiting their own choice...whatever floats your boat!!

 

[nightstraveler]

Too much to remember

The only reason I only use Innova is because that's plenty enough to remember. I figure they try to create discs of every common variety, and so I only have to remember one set of names and general characteristics.

Discs may vary but a beast is going to be flippier than a starfire, always.

 

[PhattD]

Here is the thing...just a guess, since sales figures are not released from any of the companies, but the general estimate is that Innova holds 80% of the disc golf market, and Discraft around 10%. So Innova discs have a lot more runs and a lot more chance for there to be a variation than Discraft. So Discraft might have better quality control, or quality control might just be easier when you only have to make one disc for every 8 your competitor has to make.

In quality control you are controlling the percentage of flawed product that reaches the market or the amount of fluctuation from the norm. having larger runs actually makes it easier to have tighter quality controll standards. Secondly even if you were right would that make it ok? I mean if company A is more consistent than company B isn't that better regardless of how many discs company B makes? Producing more discs will make for a larger variation in the extremes but it won't affect the chances of you getting an out of spec disc.
BTW I have a bachelors degree in actuarial mathematics so I specialize in probability and statistics.

 

[ZMan44]

sweet...my bachelors is in actuarial math also...my masters in econometrics. disc golf must really appeal to nerds.

 

[PhattD]

sweet...my bachelors is in actuarial math also...my masters in econometrics. disc golf must really appeal to nerds.

Who you callin a nerd? I'll slap you with my pocket protector

 

[Three Putt]

In quality control you are controlling the percentage of flawed product that reaches the market or the amount of fluctuation from the norm. having larger runs actually makes it easier to have tighter quality controll standards. Secondly even if you were right would that make it ok? I mean if company A is more consistent than company B isn't that better regardless of how many discs company B makes? Producing more discs will make for a larger variation in the extremes but it won't affect the chances of you getting an out of spec disc.
BTW I have a bachelors degree in actuarial mathematics so I specialize in probability and statistics.

My understanding is that the size of a run is consistent from Discraft to Innova, so neither one is having larger runs. Discraft just has fewer of them. Not sure what that does to the actuarial math for that probability. If it's anything like the conversations I had with my college roommate who majored in engineering, it means I'm wrong no matter what I say. Damn that Liberal Arts degree!

At any rate, I think the issue is perception of business practices more than quality control. When the high density plastics came out and it became obvious that the more dense plastics caused discs to behave more overstable in flight, Discraft did...well, nothing. They left their molds alone and released the discs as they were.

Innova, on the other hand, tried to account for the difference by creating "X" molds or "L" molds and essentially selling two molds under one name to account for the differences in flight caused by the different plastics. They also make decisions like making the DX Eagle in the "L" mold so there would be more difference between the flight of an Eagle and TeeBird, only to find out that it hurt their sales so they reverted back to the Eagle "X." That decision made a lot of Eagle throwers happy but also helps to confuse the average Joe who doesn't know the first thing about "X" and "L" molds. All the average Joe knows is that he bought one Eagle and it flew one way, then bought another Eagle and it did something completely different. Then he bought an XL and it did one thing so he bought another XL and it did the same thing the first one did. His perception might be that Innova has crappy quality control, when in fact he simply prefers the business practice of Discraft.

Myself personally, I see pros and cons to both approaches so I really don't think I'd call one company better than the other.

When you talk about the big rimmed drivers like the Wraith, Surge, Destroyer, Force, etc., there are big variations in those discs regardless of the company because those designs are so hard to mold up. I think the mis perception that Discraft has superior quality control should be debunked by the variety of Force you can buy, but that should not give any smug satisfaction to Innova since they can't make the same Destroyer twice.

 

[bikedoctor]

"I only throw Ching"...i've never heard anybody say that last one, but i do hear the Innova or Discraft one"

Funny

 

[bikedoctor]

Innova, on the other hand, tried to account for the difference by creating "X" molds or "L" molds and essentially selling two molds under one name to account for the differences in flight caused by the different plastics. They also make decisions like making the DX Eagle in the "L" mold so there would be more difference between the flight of an Eagle and TeeBird, only to find out that it hurt their sales so they reverted back to the Eagle "X." That decision made a lot of Eagle throwers happy but also helps to confuse the average Joe who doesn't know the first thing about "X" and "L" molds. All the average Joe knows is that he bought one Eagle and it flew one way, then bought another Eagle and it did something completely different. Then he bought an XL and it did one thing so he bought another XL and it did the same thing the first one did. His perception might be that Innova has crappy quality control, when in fact he simply prefers the business practice of Discraft..

I guess this is what a thrower must consider. Do I want the company deciding the "tweek" of the disc from plastic to plastic. Or do I trust my judgement and knowlede of plastic to make the right decision.

Being a noob I will probably stay Innova like nightstraveler said because you can find Innova anywhere. Which is good in a pinch during an out of town Tournament.

tomschillin - I think had a great point. Throw what works.

 

[PhattD]

My understanding is that the size of a run is consistent from Discraft to Innova, so neither one is having larger runs. Discraft just has fewer of them. Not sure what that does to the actuarial math for that probability. If it's anything like the conversations I had with my college roommate who majored in engineering, it means I'm wrong no matter what I say. Damn that Liberal Arts degree!

At any rate, I think the issue is perception of business practices more than quality control. When the high density plastics came out and it became obvious that the more dense plastics caused discs to behave more overstable in flight, Discraft did...well, nothing. They left their molds alone and released the discs as they were.

Innova, on the other hand, tried to account for the difference by creating "X" molds or "L" molds and essentially selling two molds under one name to account for the differences in flight caused by the different plastics. They also make decisions like making the DX Eagle in the "L" mold so there would be more difference between the flight of an Eagle and TeeBird, only to find out that it hurt their sales so they reverted back to the Eagle "X." That decision made a lot of Eagle throwers happy but also helps to confuse the average Joe who doesn't know the first thing about "X" and "L" molds. All the average Joe knows is that he bought one Eagle and it flew one way, then bought another Eagle and it did something completely different. Then he bought an XL and it did one thing so he bought another XL and it did the same thing the first one did. His perception might be that Innova has crappy quality control, when in fact he simply prefers the business practice of Discraft.

Myself personally, I see pros and cons to both approaches so I really don't think I'd call one company better than the other.

When you talk about the big rimmed drivers like the Wraith, Surge, Destroyer, Force, etc., there are big variations in those discs regardless of the company because those designs are so hard to mold up. I think the mis perception that Discraft has superior quality control should be debunked by the variety of Force you can buy, but that should not give any smug satisfaction to Innova since they can't make the same Destroyer twice.

I don't make any claims as to Discraft being more consistent than Innova or not. I throw Mostly discraft primarily because I like the Elite X plastic and it's a Michigan based company. I was only trying to point out that if there is a difference in consistancy between the two it's not because Innova sells more. The reason I mentioned the degree is because Quality control is part of what we do. The key is that the greater the total population the smaller the percentage that has to be tested to have the same consistancy in the product. So if Innovan has such a large market share advantage they should be either spending less on quality control (on a per disc basis) or have greater consistancy in the final product. That being said I can't tell from personal experience if either company is more consistent. Maybe once I'm throwing strong enough for the big rim drivers I'll notice the difference but right now I'm barely throwing strong enough for the Wraith/Surge, I mostly use Wildcat/Valkyrie.