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Distance Driving - Missing the Trees for the Forest

This kid must start the lawn mower better than you guys.

Great closed starting position on the right with the opposite shoulder closer to target than throwing shoulder, front heel up. Starts the pull with the weight shift/shoulder, heel down, crush the can, then elbow bends and leads from closed position, opposite arm is countering for leverage, head not turned forward even though shoulder has...etc:
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Put a disc in his hand and he'll be outdriving Simon, I mean it's practically identical
 
A lawn mower offers more resistance at first, and you give more power in the initial pull, and decelerate as it starts at the end of the pull. Newbies like me end up trying too hard, and arm throwing.

"Opposite shoulder towards the target" is another great description. Much more effective a description than "reach back" and without even throwing a disc, its clear to me my "reach back" is insufficient, and probably results in me leaning back my upper body, versus pivoting my core.

Can't wait to throw this afternoon with this in mind.
 
After three years of strong-arming every throw (not even aware of it most of the time), I finally decided to return to basics. I started at the hit and moved backwards, only adding the next part when I truly "got" it. I think starting with just a stand-still throw and keeping my elbow effectively immobilized in relation to my shoulders (think bent-elbow technique) really helped in removing the arm muscles from the throw. It forced me to change how I moved in order to transfer energy into the disc. Specifically, I realized body rotation tempo is critical if you don't want a slip on every throw. A brief look at top pros in slow-motion will illustrate the pace (and smoothness) of the rotation.

The result is no more strong-arming and a lot more distance and accuracy.
 
Hey TBFG, I also suffered injury early in the year. Disc golf can be a dangerous game for older guys (I'm 51). Took me 3 weeks to heal up. I'm not sure exactly what I did, but I knew it wasn't right. Gave me some time to start trying to learn how not to hurt myself and play this game a bit better.

Thank goodness for dgcoursereview! Many thanks to all who put time and effort into this excellent resource.

Ouch. My problem was not following through well. My body wasn't rotating enough and my arm would yank to a stop with a sharp pain. What got me past that was making bringing my non-throwing arm around to finish up 180 degrees from my pre-throw position, off arm bent and raised like I'm about to thumb my nose at my flying disc. Focusing on ending up in this position causes me to rotate properly on the follow through. I still sometimes feel pain when I have to stop my throw short like when I'm in danger of slamming my arm into a tree if I don't.
 
And it's different for everyone. Some people have something they read or watched just click and they suddenly get it. Some, like me, don't get it until someone explains it a little differently, or they just figure it out or stumble on it themselves. The advice that makes me want to scream is the oft-repeated, "It's just muscle memory." Might as well say it's just quantum physics, or it's just magic for all the good it does you. I remember seriously doubting the disc actually pulls out of the hand without releasing it, until it happened. Heh.
 
This kid must start the lawn mower better than you guys.

Great closed starting position on the right with the opposite shoulder closer to target than throwing shoulder, front heel up. Starts the pull with the weight shift/shoulder, heel down, crush the can, then elbow bends and leads from closed position, opposite arm is countering for leverage, head not turned forward even though shoulder has...etc:
picture.php


Heh. Kid could be a pro. The main problem with the lawnmower analogy is it makes newbs like me think we should start muscling hard clear from the reach back. I even thought the reach back was a sort of 'run up' to maximize throw speed. Doesn't work. The move should be smooth and slow until about to the right pec, and THEN accelerate through the hit. With a mower you're straining right off the bat.
 
The advice that makes me want to scream is the oft-repeated, "It's just muscle memory." Might as well say it's just quantum physics, or it's just magic for all the good it does you.

Yeah I agree with you there on one part of that...it's not muscle memory until you know what to teach it to do correctly, so it will remember the right positions!

But what I don't like is when people go do field work, try something twice, and want to think it's their new throw and get analysis or think it's major changes. Let it sink in! Experiment with it. Sometimes I try to think of 5+ different things throughout a throw in field practice. It's hard. After a ton of throws like that my body starts to do it the same way in a more flowing way.

Then, once my body has some muscle memory from that motion, I can concentrate on the disc feel/hit point again and see how it's going. Sometimes it takes multiple sessions to get to that point with a drastically different form. Then, you can analyze and see what's going on again. At least that's how it's worked for me. I know I can't do something once and trust myself to have that form every time thereafter.
 
The main problem with the lawnmower analogy is it makes newbs like me think we should start muscling hard clear from the reach back. I even thought the reach back was a sort of 'run up' to maximize throw speed. Doesn't work. The move should be smooth and slow until about to the right pec, and THEN accelerate through the hit. With a mower you're straining right off the bat.
You start the lawn mower slow using your body to generate enough momentum and then accelerate the arm to the finish, just like a throw. Main difference is the lawn mower string breaks free in a throw and you are allowed to pivot.
 
And it's different for everyone. Some people have something they read or watched just click and they suddenly get it. Some, like me, don't get it until someone explains it a little differently, or they just figure it out or stumble on it themselves.

Very true. What I have learned is that there are many ways to learn to throw, find the advice that works best for you and ignore the rest. For instance, I got a lot out of the recent Sexton/Mcbeth video, I get nothing from SW22 videos, there too tedious and boring for me to pay attention to (sorry SW) but I read every one of his posts because I understand it better when he writes.

Take what works for you and leave the rest. And remember this is supposed to be fun, not drudgery.
 
Yeah I agree with you there on one part of that...it's not muscle memory until you know what to teach it to do correctly, so it will remember the right positions!

But what I don't like is when people go do field work, try something twice, and want to think it's their new throw and get analysis or think it's major changes. Let it sink in! Experiment with it. Sometimes I try to think of 5+ different things throughout a throw in field practice. It's hard. After a ton of throws like that my body starts to do it the same way in a more flowing way.

Then, once my body has some muscle memory from that motion, I can concentrate on the disc feel/hit point again and see how it's going. Sometimes it takes multiple sessions to get to that point with a drastically different form. Then, you can analyze and see what's going on again. At least that's how it's worked for me. I know I can't do something once and trust myself to have that form every time thereafter.

I have muscle memory amnesia. My level of play drops from intermediate to novice if I go a week without throwing.
 
And it's different for everyone. Some people have something they read or watched just click and they suddenly get it. Some, like me, don't get it until someone explains it a little differently, or they just figure it out or stumble on it themselves. The advice that makes me want to scream is the oft-repeated, "It's just muscle memory." Might as well say it's just quantum physics, or it's just magic for all the good it does you. I remember seriously doubting the disc actually pulls out of the hand without releasing it, until it happened. Heh.
Muscle memory is a real thing. It's amazing after 15 years of not training/competing in swimming, I still have the muscle memory to be fast and efficient. The difference now is that I don't have the muscle endurance to maintain that pace and form over distance.

In disc golf it's the same thing. You need to practice and train so that the movements become like reflex.
 
Also when I refer to "release", I'm not talking about letting go of the disc from grip, it's releasing the lever. A baseball hitter and golfer release the head of the bat or club through contact. You release the head end of the disc to the target.
 
Also when I refer to "release", I'm not talking about letting go of the disc from grip, it's releasing the lever. A baseball hitter and golfer release the head of the bat or club through contact. You release the head end of the disc to the target.

I'm not following what you mean by 'releasing the lever'.
 
Muscle memory works against me, by which I mean my body 'thinks' it knows how to throw something and it tries to revert to that if I'm not careful. Heck, it will do it from one hole to the next! One thing that helps me is doing a practice 'throw' with nothing in my hand. I move faster without a disc resisting acceleration and since I'm not throwing something allows me to focus on proper form without the bod's stupid "I know how to throw stuff" getting in the way. I do this discless throw then pick up my disc and tell myself, "See? Now do that." It seems to help.
 

That makes sense. I find it interesting that the guy in the video talks about releasing the lever of the wrist, but ignores the fact that he's doing the exact same thing with his forearm. It seems like another way of saying what I was saying about the pinch point on the disc. Extend it back to the shoulder and, in order, the upper arm opens up, then the forearm, then the wrist. All of which adds acceleration to the disc, but I still maintain that the last contact point of the forefinger on the disc adds spin and the last bit of releasing the lever or 'hammer throw' acceleration to the disc. Here's the thing about the hammer/hatchet analogy: while there's some value to it, where it falls apart is that the far half of the disc/hammer is exactly the same mass as the near half, which isn't like a hammer at all. A real hammer, or hatchet, is easy to throw end over end because nearly all the weight is in the far end of the object. A disc has its weight equally distributed, so throwing a disc is more like throwing a two-headed hammer (picture a hammer with a head at either end of the handle). By holding onto one of the heads of this imaginary hammer it is harder to make it go end over end (spin) by just accelerating the far end, because the near end is just as massive. All we're talking about in all of this is whipping the weight around a rotation point - (ignoring the body below the shoulder) first the elbow, then the wrist, then the pinch point were the disc is gripped. Each of these points has the weight beyond it rotating as they open up and accelerate the disc that much more. When I focus on the pinch point of index finger and thumb, the disc not only leaves their grip spinning more, it is accelerated as it whips around the pivot.

One last thought that occurs to me, which my or may not be grounded in truth. Thinking about the mythical two-headed hammer, one reason it's more difficult to throw it end over end is that, while the throwing motion may accelerate the far head more than the near (handle) head, you're still throwing that head, too. The inertia of the held handle head is nearly as great as the far head, and in the same direction, so it resists basically going backwards, which it must do if the hammer is to spin end over end when released. Reduce or eliminate the mass of the held head and it easily succumbs to spinning against the direction of throw because less mass means less inertia for the spin to counter. We've talked about the drag the grip must create when the disc is thrown and how it must be counter productive to the throw, but maybe what it does is it saps that inertia of the near (handle) end of the disc so that it doesn't put up as much of a fight being made to go backwards as the disc begins to spin. In other words, the last bit of resistance from the grip could be stealing just enough inertia from the near end of the disc so the disc doesn't resist spinning like a two-headed hammer would resist being thrown end over end.

(I hope this parses correctly.) Picture this figure as the two-headed hammer (the O's are the heads, and the line between is the handle connecting them. The arrows show the direction of velocity of both heads is in the same direction up to the release point. Having both moving in the same direction is counter productive to spin because the held head of the hammer must spin backwards to begin a clockwise rotation of the hammer.

(Drawing didn't parse correctly, as feared, so I'm adding the periods to move things to the right as the leading spaces were removed when I submitted. So ignore the rows of periods - they're just there to get things to line up properly.)

...........................O --> Direction of spin and velocity
...........................||
Spin Direction <-- O --> Direction of velocity

If the last bit of drag of the fingers on the disc steals a bit of the held end of the hammer's inertia, though, it will be less resistant to changing to the direction of spin. In the same action it allows you to transfer more acceleration to the far head as it pivots on the pinch point.

Just a thought.
 
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